Garden Music room advice?

[spiltmilk_2000]

Hi all, I’m looking at getting a music room built in the garden and am wondering if any of you have gone through the process and have any nuggets of wisdom to share. 

I have the space but my big considerations are budget, insulation/heating, moisture etc. Not too worried about sound levels as it’ll be away from neighbours. I’m thinking about 5x4 mètres so not really a full band rehearsal space but big enough for friends to come for a jam and for a drum kit for the kids.

option1... log cabin style... double glazed and insulated with celotex etc. Cheapest option.

option 2... garden office room. These are more expensive but designed for all round use.

option 3... brick built. Probably way too expensive but I’d guess the best option for storing instruments that are susceptible to cold and damp.

Anyone have any experience with any of the above? Pros & cons? Particularly interested if anyone has gone for a more budget log cabin style structure and made it work? Anyone used any companies they’ve been pleased with?

thanks if you have any advice!

russ

 

[bertbass]

The only help I can offer is to check the planning regulations.  Where I am, if it's wood you can build anything up to a certain height without planning permission as long as it's far enough away from a road.  Brick built and planning permission needs to be sought and building regs apply etc.

[musicbassman]

If you're just looking for something practical and not beautiful you could consider a biggish Portacabin.

Best for security is the builders site cabin type with metal shutters to close over the windows.

There's plenty advertised on ebay. Then factor in transport costs and a mobile crane to lift it over hedges, gardens, outbuildings etc. to your chosen location.

Did this at my place a few years ago. cabin was £1500, transport £750, mobile crane £1K. It's a 'portable building' so you may not need PP

Mind you, don't consider this if you have close neighbours and you want to use one of these for rehearsals, sound insulation is very poor.

Hope this is useful.

[Happy Jack]

What is access like to the site? Do you have a garage? Do you already have outbuildings in place? Are you any good at DIY? Are your neighbours the overbearing type?

All these will have a bearing on what's best for you in your particular circumstances.

As to budget, if you haven't already checked out the cost of building a 'garden room' then sit down and pour yourself a stiff drink.

You may find this old thread helpful:

 

[TorturedSaints]

Regarding the log cabin option,  we built one as a garden room/summerhouse.  Even with lots of insulation and cladding the inside roof, it's too cold in winter and too hot in summer.  It's a nice room, but I wouldn't leave musical instruments in there as there is a lot of condensation over the winter and the diurnal temperature range in summer will play havoc with bass necks.   Even the fitness machines that live in there have suffered slightly.  Do check the planning regulations (which are different for us in Scotland) before you build, which may become relevant/required if you plan to put any heating in it.  

Hope this helps your decision - it was relatively cheap to buy/build for us, but we were never planning to use it for music.

[dannybuoy]

I was looking around for a garden office recently and came across these guys, they have examples of sound proofed studios too:

http://www.boothsgardenstudios.co.uk

[Beedster]

Hope this might help a bit also

 

 

[Bilbo]

I have a wooden cabin and find it more than satisfactory.  Too hot/cold is managed by a fan and a heater. Otherwise,  it is dry and I see no evidence of condensation after 4 years. Mine is a tiny bit too small at 8x10 feet but I have a PC, double bass, two electrics and five guitars in there as well as books and cds. No problem. Cost about £1600

[spiltmilk_2000]

Thank you all for the advice! Lots to think about there... bilbo, would be keen to know  what you’ve done insulation wise and if your equipment has shown no ill effects from cold etc?

 

[Bilbo]

No insulation and no ill effects on gear. Guitars, PC, effects, saxophone, books, cds, art etc. The wood is s natural insulator and absorbs moisture thereby preventing damp of any kind. I have a carpet in there and it is not showing any signs of deterioration. Would recommend wholeheartedly. 

[Shaggy]

We had one built by these guys last year: http://www.gardenroomwales.co.uk/garden-room-gallery/  and have to say it's superb; the floor, walls and roof fully insulated (double walled with sheet insulation between), thick cedar cladding outside, proper slate roof, and sub-floor heating with frost protection.   No trace of any damp or condensation at all over the hard winter we've just had - it does get really warm if it's closed up and the sun's out, but a build with less window area with blinds and/or reflective glass would reduce that.   Meant mainly for the missus to do her yoga in, but I do go and play my flamenco guitar out there as the acoustics are lovely and I can make all the horrible noises I want without annoying the family.......  I'd happily keep electrical gear out there, but not instruments.

[Bilbo]

There are plenty of garden building firms who can put something up for you. I guess it depends on your budget as to what you want to spend. My cabin was about £1600 and then a bit more to have power installed. I know people who have spent considerably more but it depends on the size you need, soundproofing, security etc. most of which will be a personal choice.

 

I love the idea of sitting in there playing flamenco guitar, Shaggy. I sit an play my Ovation Custom Legend in mine, working on my guitar reading, and am in heaven. It's nice not to have to plug things in and set up amps and stuff.  

[mrtcat]

I built mine myself. The main building was supplied as a rough kit from the timber merchants in a neighbouring village. It is on a full concrete base, a wooden frame made from 2x4 timbers, felt roof slates, lapped outer wall with a breathable waterproof membrane then a 3 inch layer of polystyrene insulation followed by ply inner walls which have been fully battened to allow 4 inch acoustic insulation in the walls and 12 inches above the ceiling. The whole thing is then dry lined and plastered. I have a really low output conservatory storage heater which ticks over all winter at pretty much no cost. The insulation is so good that its warm in winter and during the recent hot weather was absolutely beautifully cool. The inner space is divided into two so there's still a functioning garage / mower store in the non music room side. 

I have an acoustic drum kit that has been converted to electric running through superior drummer and we have full band rehearsals in there with everyone on in ears. We also have video cameras permanently mounted on walls so we can shoot videos at rehearsals if we think it will make interesting media for our potential clients. As we use a digital mixer its a cinch to It's a work in progress but is an amazing space. 

My advice is that you need to start with a solid base and be prepared to insulate really well and install a breathable membrane. If its built well and you look after it there should be absolutely no reason to have any damp issues. Invest in decent security. The alarm we have is linked to our house alarm and I have so many locks and door bars etc that it takes me 3 mins to get in when I first unlock it. 

[mikel]

The more you spend the better it will be. Wooden sheds/cabins, more so if they have a wooden floor, are simply a sound box. Like an acoustic guitar almost. Lots of insulation will help but timber has little mass so dont expect it to be soundproof or to reduce the volume outside by much.

[franzbassist]

We had a "twin skin" wooden garden room built a few years ago. It's fully insulated and is usable without additional cooling/heating in all but extremes of temperature.

Equipment (amps, drums, electric piano etc) don't seem to suffer in it at all.  I don't leave high value instruments out there but cheap ones seem to cope fine in all conditions.

Even though it's insulated and has double glazed windows, there's very little attenuation the minute you hit a snare or plug something in!

It's morphed into a boycave for my 15yo son recently: PS4 with large flat screen TV and arm chair, and a Roland electric drum kit, seem to dominate the space!

[cheddatom]

13 hours ago, mrtcat said:

I built mine myself. The main building was supplied as a rough kit from the timber merchants in a neighbouring village. It is on a full concrete base, a wooden frame made from 2x4 timbers, felt roof slates, lapped outer wall with a breathable waterproof membrane then a 3 inch layer of polystyrene insulation followed by ply inner walls which have been fully battened to allow 4 inch acoustic insulation in the walls and 12 inches above the ceiling. The whole thing is then dry lined and plastered. I have a really low output conservatory storage heater which ticks over all winter at pretty much no cost. The insulation is so good that its warm in winter and during the recent hot weather was absolutely beautifully cool. The inner space is divided into two so there's still a functioning garage / mower store in the non music room side. 

I have an acoustic drum kit that has been converted to electric running through superior drummer and we have full band rehearsals in there with everyone on in ears. We also have video cameras permanently mounted on walls so we can shoot videos at rehearsals if we think it will make interesting media for our potential clients. As we use a digital mixer its a cinch to It's a work in progress but is an amazing space. 

My advice is that you need to start with a solid base and be prepared to insulate really well and install a breathable membrane. If its built well and you look after it there should be absolutely no reason to have any damp issues. Invest in decent security. The alarm we have is linked to our house alarm and I have so many locks and door bars etc that it takes me 3 mins to get in when I first unlock it. 

This looks amazing! Do you mind if I ask how much you spent? And how soundproof it is?

[mrtcat]

14 minutes ago, cheddatom said:

This looks amazing! Do you mind if I ask how much you spent? And how soundproof it is?

The basic building was a touch over £5k including the cost of concrete for the base and electricians fees to run a dedicated power supply and to install all the sockets etc. I salvaged the double glazed window panes from my parents place when they had new windows put in. The insulation and membrane totalled about £300. The plaster board was about £250 (i went for the more dense sound reducing stuff) and then probably another £100 to plaster and paint it including tools. Total spend was just under £6k. I spend probably £80 every year to re paint the exterior.

In terms of soundproofing its surprisingly good. We have recorded acoustic drums in there many times and you have to be standing within about 5 m of the building before you can really hear the kick with a loud drummer. It could be better if I'd opted to use isolation rubber plasterboard fittings and a floating floor to essentially isolate the inner room from the outer shell.  

[mikel]

1 hour ago, mrtcat said:

The basic building was a touch over £5k including the cost of concrete for the base and electricians fees to run a dedicated power supply and to install all the sockets etc. I salvaged the double glazed window panes from my parents place when they had new windows put in. The insulation and membrane totalled about £300. The plaster board was about £250 (i went for the more dense sound reducing stuff) and then probably another £100 to plaster and paint it including tools. Total spend was just under £6k. I spend probably £80 every year to re paint the exterior.

In terms of soundproofing its surprisingly good. We have recorded acoustic drums in there many times and you have to be standing within about 5 m of the building before you can really hear the kick with a loud drummer. It could be better if I'd opted to use isolation rubber plasterboard fittings and a floating floor to essentially isolate the inner room from the outer shell.  

Wow, that's cheap for all that insulation.  You have done a great job for what is very little money in the attenuation you say is that good. Are the windows and door simply double glazed or are there two units in each opening?

[cheddatom]

2 hours ago, mrtcat said:

The basic building was a touch over £5k including the cost of concrete for the base and electricians fees to run a dedicated power supply and to install all the sockets etc. I salvaged the double glazed window panes from my parents place when they had new windows put in. The insulation and membrane totalled about £300. The plaster board was about £250 (i went for the more dense sound reducing stuff) and then probably another £100 to plaster and paint it including tools. Total spend was just under £6k. I spend probably £80 every year to re paint the exterior.

In terms of soundproofing its surprisingly good. We have recorded acoustic drums in there many times and you have to be standing within about 5 m of the building before you can really hear the kick with a loud drummer. It could be better if I'd opted to use isolation rubber plasterboard fittings and a floating floor to essentially isolate the inner room from the outer shell.  

Wow, that's amazing, thanks for the info

[SubsonicSimpleton]

There is a good series of videos that a drum teacher posted on youtube which shows the design and construction of a proper 2 leaf room within a room building.

There are also a couple of garage conversion vids that show in reasonable detail their methods along with proper measurement

It's not too difficult to also find projects where people have ignored key principles and end up with lots of expense for little real world return, so it definately pays to research this topic with some thoroughness before starting to build anything.

[Skol303]

21 hours ago, mrtcat said:

I built mine myself...

Wow, lovely looking room! Nice job. My only comment would be to rip out those foam panels and get some proper acoustic treatment in there. But you probably don’t want to hear that

Seriously though, that's a great space you've got there.

For anyone considering building their own rehearsal room/studio, it pays to include acoustic treatment as part of the build - i.e. factor in mineral wool-filled frames, ideally 12" thick or more, stuffed with low density fibre. Even just one wall, treated like that from floor to ceiling, will make a huge difference. It's almost impossible to retro-fit this kind of treatment in a typical domestic space, but it'll result in great acoustics if you're able to build from scratch.

[spiltmilk_2000]

Guys, I’m loving this thread. Thanks so much for all the advice... can’t say it’s helped me get closer to a decision on the way to go but it’s got me excited at the possibilities.

Forgot to mention in the original post but I also have an integral double garage. Was thinking of retaining that as a garage as didn’t want to lose the storage but seems to make more sense converting that and putting in a cabin in the garden to make up for lost storage. Thoughts? Anyway, keep the pics and advice coming! Loving seeing everyone’s man caves :-)

[Skol303]

37 minutes ago, spiltmilk_2000 said:

...I also have an integral double garage. Was thinking of retaining that as a garage as didn’t want to lose the storage but seems to make more sense converting that and putting in a cabin in the garden to make up for lost storage. Thoughts?

I’d opt for whichever will result in you having the largest room. Bigger really is better when it comes to acoustics. And that will make all the difference if you plan on using the space for recording and/or mixing. If it's solely for rehearsals, plump for whichever is going to annoy the fewest people

Also worth considering that an integral garage will be a) easier to heat/power; b) more secure than an outbuilding and c) possibly cheaper to convert.

PS: some info in this thread on my own man cave, which is a converted single garage (set up as a mix room).

[mikel]

2 hours ago, spiltmilk_2000 said:

Guys, I’m loving this thread. Thanks so much for all the advice... can’t say it’s helped me get closer to a decision on the way to go but it’s got me excited at the possibilities.

Forgot to mention in the original post but I also have an integral double garage. Was thinking of retaining that as a garage as didn’t want to lose the storage but seems to make more sense converting that and putting in a cabin in the garden to make up for lost storage. Thoughts? Anyway, keep the pics and advice coming! Loving seeing everyone’s man caves :-)

I always though that If I was ever lucky enough to have an integral double garage I would convert at least half of it to a practice space. As its already brick, with a proper roof and concrete floor, the conversion would be fairly easy.

[mrtcat]

14 hours ago, Skol303 said:

Wow, lovely looking room! Nice job. My only comment would be to rip out those foam panels and get some proper acoustic treatment in there. But you probably don’t want to hear that

Seriously though, that's a great space you've got there.

For anyone considering building their own rehearsal room/studio, it pays to include acoustic treatment as part of the build - i.e. factor in mineral wool-filled frames, ideally 12" thick or more, stuffed with low density fibre. Even just one wall, treated like that from floor to ceiling, will make a huge difference. It's almost impossible to retro-fit this kind of treatment in a typical domestic space, but it'll result in great acoustics if you're able to build from scratch.

The foam panels were donated to me from a friends rehearsal room that closed. I don't really need acoustic treatment as we use modelling units for guitars and bass and an electronic kit with everyone on in ears. If we record anything you're not hearing the room at all except for with vocals. Same applies when we rehearse. Its very rare for me to record other bands in there now so I can't really justify the outlay. If i was recording acoustically more often then definitely I would. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by mrtcat