Jam nights - cliquey

[shoulderpet]

Jam nights - cliquey  - Anyone else found this? The concept is appealing and the chance to play some songs you have not played before is in theory a good way to learn and improve , the reality is that most of the jam nights I have been to you see the house bands first pick their favourites that they let play several songs then the remaining people wait half the night to go up and play maybe 3 songs, I generally enjoy jam nights but the cliqueyness is so off putting

[EliasMooseblaster]

Oh, hell yes. It is a tricky balance to get right, though - I speak from some (limited) experience having covered one for a friend! Obviously you want to give all the musicians a chance to get up and play, but every new person that shows up is an unknown quantity - not just on the axis of technically good / bad, but also the essential axis of modesty vs incorrigible showboating!

And of course, anyone who's not playing is there to be entertained. There's a fear that if you bring up too many howlers, punters will lose interest, and other musicians will start to regard the jam as having a low standard of musicianship.

(And that's before you consider the internal politics between the regulars - knowing that you can't put Adam up with Ben because neither likes the way the other hogs the stage, or Carl won't play with Diane because she once forgot the chords to that one obscure soul tune he wanted to sing, even though that was weeks ago...)

So in short, I can see why they find safety in the musicians they know. But it's equally counterproductive to play it too safe. If you're too scared to take a punt on someone you don't know, you're just going to micturate off the other musicians, and the punters will quickly get bored of watching the same dozen people cycling through the same dozen songs every week.

And that's giving the host the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that he/she doesn't see the jam as a back door to having their own personal stage show, where they can dominate the stage with their own dreary guff, and feel alright about the "jam" aspect because they got nine other musicians up wth them.

 

...can you tell that I've possibly been to too many jam nights? The above are, sadly, all based on real examples I've witnessed. The best two I've known were: one where the host never played, and my current local one, where the host plays the warm-up set, then only gets back up if there's a shortage of musicians.

[EBS_freak]

Sounds about right. I would say most jam nights are more damaging to your enjoyment of music than you'd think.

[shoulderpet]

24 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Sounds about right. I would say most jam nights are more damaging to your enjoyment of music than you'd think.

Yeah I would agree , funny thing is when I have been going for a while (just recently started becoming a little disillusioned by them) and first time I went, I ended up being on last for 1 song which I accepted as it was a busy night and I accepted as it was the first time I had been there, now months on and no longer the new guy it is obvious that I am just not part of the clique so I get the 3 songs and no more unless the place is completely dead.

[stingrayPete1977]

Maybe you're just not very good? 

[gary mac]

I stopped going years back, mostly due to it always ending up being a constant round of twelve bar blues type stuff, while an Eric Clapton type wannabee showed us all what a total rock God he was and that we were so lucky to be supporting him

[BrunoBass]

Cliquey? Oh yes. But that applies to most things related to musical performance in my experience. Certainly in my town you need to be friends with the right people if you want gigs, luckily we are to a point, but I’ve tried to get bands of friends from out of town gigs, only to be told there’s a huge waiting list, and then the landlords mate forms a new band and gets booked straight away. 

One chap in town plays in two bands, organises two festivals, and a jam night and you can bet that the only people playing will be his bands and his mates bands. It’s a bit annoying, but it’s just life isn’t it?

[No lust in Jazz]

In my experience Jam nights are cliquey and are best avoided.

[thepurpleblob]

It's never been appealing to me... 

[martthebass]

Definitely can be.  I'll always give one a chance but if the dreaded clique (usually involving 30 minute renditions of Hey Joe) rears it's head then it's a one-visit thing.

Edited May 9, 2018 by martthebass

[shoulderpet]

24 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Maybe you're just not very good? 

Lol thats entirely possible, never claimed to be although I am probably better than I give myself credit for

[Japhet]

I used to play but haven't done so for years now. I found that once you got known you'd get to play with some decent musicians but up until that point you could end up with anything from OK to unbearable. I've visited a few 'jam' nights in the past couple of years but have noticed that it seems to have become a forum for bands to try stuff out (as in rehearse) instead of a random bunch trying to make a bit of music. They seem to turn up, play their bit and then pack up and bog off. This has though largely done away with the 12 bar blues quagmire that had a depressing inevitability about it but a bit of middle ground would be nice. I was always wary of being 'the only bass player' and getting stuck for what seemed like an eternity backing widdlers playing the same durge. If you were lucky you might occasionally get a change of key though.

[SpondonBassed]

2 hours ago, shoulderpet said:

Jam nights - cliquey  - Anyone else found this? The concept is appealing and the chance to play some songs you have not played before is in theory a good way to learn and improve , the reality is that most of the jam nights I have been to you see the house bands first pick their favourites that they let play several songs then the remaining people wait half the night to go up and play maybe 3 songs, I generally enjoy jam nights but the cliqueyness is so off putting

Yes.

I don't bother now.  I have other places I can go and be marginalised.

In my twenties a jam was a get together in someone's house with friends, not in a pub where there are circles within circles and most of the participants are intoxicated.  Open Mic however is a different story.

[SpondonBassed]

27 minutes ago, Japhet said:

it seems to have become a forum for bands to try stuff out (as in rehearse) instead of a random bunch trying to make a bit of music. They seem to turn up, play their bit and then pack up and bog off. This has though largely done away with the 12 bar blues quagmire that had a depressing inevitability about it

My recent experience was of lots of boring 12 bar stuff AND regional bands.  They come in to promote themselves and practice bits of their set.  No time for any middle ground there then.

[Geek99]

I’ve never tried an actual jam night but am also equally aware of being the “ only bass player in the village” syndrome 

 

open mic mic was fun though as I tried lots of stuff I hadn’t heard before 

[Marvin]

Music in general can be really cliquey. Certain venues have 'preferred bands' and if you're not one of them you'll be waisting your time trying to get booked there etc etc etc.

I might actually be going to a jam night tonight. The guy who runs is actually a very generous guy and does try his best to encourage as many people as possible to get up and have a go. I think he's all too aware of the 'same old faces' thing hogging the 'stage'.

That said, the only reason I probably get up or get asked to join in is because the guys from my band know him really well, so yes, they can be very cliquey even when not trying to be.

[Les]

What's the difference between an open mic night and a jam night ?

[SpondonBassed]

12 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

I’ve never tried an actual jam night but am also equally aware of being the “ only bass player in the village” syndrome 

 

open mic mic was fun though as I tried lots of stuff I hadn’t heard before 

I think the two get confused too easily.

I'd make the following distinction:

• a jam is where people who are not already in a band together can meet over mutually agreed numbers
• an open mic is an opportunity for bands or individuals to try out their material in public.

[Marvin]

Just now, Les said:

What's the difference between an open mic night and a jam night ?

Jam nights seem to be things where anyone can just jump in and join in, which is usually why it turns into a 12 bar fest.

Open mics on the other hand appear to be solo acts or bands taking a turn and maybe playing a few songs, then the next soloist or group get up.

Maybe.

[Les]

Thanks, that's cleared that up. So basically no house band at an open mic ?

Edited May 9, 2018 by Les

[SpondonBassed]

10 minutes ago, Les said:

Thanks, that's cleared that up. So basically no house band at an open mic ?

I found it strange and a little intimidating with Tristram Shandy.  I don't really class them as a house band though.  This was also advertised as a jam.  A house band at an Open Mic is fine as long as they sit it out for the other players to get on with it.  If it is a quiet evening (attendance is always unpredictable) a house band will at least keep paying customers of the pub occupied.

Tristram Shandy are a long standing band with one of the original members still active.  I can not knock their credentials.  I came away with the feeling that they were hosting the jam for promotional reasons as much as anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing with their drummer and a local vocalist/gob-iron blower but if you know material that they've already rehearsed as a band they aren't keen on others joining them.

Edited May 9, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[Marvin]

3 minutes ago, Les said:

Thanks, that's cleared that up. So basically no house band at an open mic ?

The open mic my mate runs has a sort of house band, if you could call it that. Him and his bandmate might do the first 2 or 3 numbers. But they get people to put their name down if they want to play and they'll call them up to play during the night. It sounds a bit regimented but it's a good night and very popular as most people get to play. If not many people turn up then the 'house band' sort of fill in the gaps.

Jam nights are a bit more of a free for all it seems. The night I go to is 'run' by one guitarist and you go up and join in if you want.

That's my experience anyway, it might be different elsewhere.

[discreet]

14 minutes ago, Les said:

What's the difference between an open mic night and a jam night ?

There's no jam at an open mic. Mmm... jam.

[Phil Starr]

I don't think there's a strict line Les and open mic's and jam sessions are as varied as the musicians that go there. My experience is that each feels different and both are often mis-described.

The minimum requirement for an open mic is just that, a mic and a small PA. Most of them just have acoustic acts and sometimes even comedians and poetry readings, a few are essentially folk venues, it's worth checking.

The minimum for a jam session is that at some point a few people will get together and play. Jamming in the sense of playing a completely unprepared 'standard' with musicians jumping in and out, and improvising seems fairly rare. You'd normally expect jam sessions to be electric, have some sort of back line provided and a drum kit, but that varies.

How cliquey they are depends upon the host and to an extent upon the landlord/lady. Many bands use it as an excuse for practice in public and the standard can be quite good, because they are used to playing together. They'll often welcome other acts as this gives them a break and of course over time the musicians all get to know each other and the songs a good host will notice anyone walking in with an instrument and try to include them once they know what they do but it is like trying to break into any conversation between friends, tricky to get started. Open mic's tend to be a bit more open, the host will have a rough idea of how many performers they have and divide the time fairly between them, but they will also know who amongst their regulars will be good and who will clear the bar so some people may get more than others. If anything is billed as an open mic it is worth always taking some sort of amp as a bassist, preferably a smallish combo as the PA may not be up to handling bass.

The venue may affect how open the event is, the host is usually paid or gets a portion of the bar takings, if the manager wants to entertain his or her regulars then they are going to expect the host to keep the standard of music up so 'better' acts are going to get more time.

[PaulWarning]

jam nights and open mic nights are different things but they can happen at the same time, usually they'll have open mic people on as well as the 'jam bands' and sometimes different people will join together at open mics if they all know the same song, but that's not really jamming in my opinion, jamming as someone else pointed out is is doing a 12 bar turnaround so some guitarist can bore the derrière off everybody with their 10 minute (or more) guitar solo, confused? I'm not surprised.

As for being cliquey, yes they probably are because the regulars know each other but once you've been a few times and they know you're not going to scare everybody off with your musical ineptitude you soon became a member of the clique, that is friends with the people there. I've got friendly with other musicians in my area by attending open mics, don't do jamming though, I don't generally know the standard jamming songs (or want to) and they don't know mine. "What do you mean you don't know Wishing Well?"