Neo v Standard speakers

[Kevin Dean]

I've been using a Ashdown ABM1000 digital head 1000w RMS 2000w peak & I had my 12" root masters upgrade with Sica neo drivers to handle it .I've started  using My ABM neo 400  ,500w rms 1000w peak as it has a different voicing more suited to the type of stuff I'm doing at the moment , with a RM15"  & 2x10RM cabs ..as I have  another ABM15 neo cab that I don't use only because of the weight , I thought as it has a higher speck driver I'll put the 15" neo into my RM cab .what I found interesting was that the White RM speaker placed in the ABM cab sounded virtually the same but obviously at a lower watt rating , But the Sica 15"  put into the RM cab had a lot less bass than the White line speaker when I thought it would have the opposite effect . 

[Lozz196]

When I was at Ashdown a couple of months back the discussion got round to Sica speakers, more to lighten the load of my ABM410 than to increase power handling, and I was advised that they would make the cab sound "tighter".

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

There are a dozen or so specs that determine driver performance. The magnet material isn't one of them. For that matter neither is the thermal rating of the voice coil.

Quote

I was advised that they would make the cab sound "tighter".

Not by a transducer engineer or IMO a competent speaker designer. That's the kind of inaccurate generalization one might expect from a marketing department.

[stevie]

Actually, any speaker engineer will tell you that the thermal rating of the voice coil does affect driver performance. Why else would speaker manufacturers have spent so much time over the years trying to improve the power handling of the voice coil? Think kapton voice coils, high temperature glues, high temperature wire coatings, sophisticated cooling mechanisms, etc.

Kevin, I'd guess that the 15" ceramic driver in your RM cab is underdamped, i.e. a bit loose and boomy, while the more expensive neo version is exerting more control over the bottom end. More bass doesn't necessarily mean better bass. Without measurements or proper data, however, nobody can tell you for sure what's happening.

[Kevin Dean]

Yes The Neo speaker in the sealed cab it came with sounds great its just a bit heavy for me ..But putting the Neo into the smaller sealed RM cab it lost a lot of bass  compared to the original ceramic driver ...earlier today I tried the same with some 12" cabs & had the same results I'm not saying that one sounded better than the other just very different ..It all goes to show how complicated this stuff is .

[VAMPYRE 5]

You’re nuts!!

Neo are lighter- simple. 

Just remember John Entwhistle always sounded like himself, regardlesd of what rig he chose.

Tone is in your fingers so pracrise amd remember... give those HPF’s a wide-birth! lol

[VAMPYRE 5]

...although I have to be honest. I bought these NEO1x15’s (400w Sica loaded) over ABM’s primarily because they DID sound better. Broader, less honky with LOTS of headroom. Fantastic cabs. 

[Kevin Dean]

39 minutes ago, VAMPYRE 5 said:

You’re nuts!!

Neo are lighter- simple. 

Just remember John Entwhistle always sounded like himself, regardlesd of what rig he chose.

Tone is in your fingers so pracrise amd remember... give those HPF’s a wide-birth! lol

Lol , with these speakers there is very little difference in the weight , the actual cab yes Plus I can not get the bass out put even with the bass turned all the way up with the sic neo speaker in the lighter cab ..I have to cover a lot of styles & use a Roland GR55 & the simple solution is to use the speaker that suites me .

[stevie]

Just out of interest, Kevin, do you remember the model number of the Sica 12 that Ashdown fitted?

[Jack]

On 13/05/2018 at 12:17, Lozz196 said:

When I was at Ashdown a couple of months back the discussion got round to Sica speakers, more to lighten the load of my ABM410 than to increase power handling, and I was advised that they would make the cab sound "tighter".

 

22 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Not by a transducer engineer or IMO a competent speaker designer. That's the kind of inaccurate generalization one might expect from a marketing department.

That's unfair. They might have put those speakers in that box before and known the outcome.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Engineers don't use subjective terms like 'tight', which mean different things to different users. Marketeers do.

[Lozz196]

Or maybe they use terms like that to - shall we say the less technical of us -  in an attempt to be speaking a language that we will understand. I`m in no way a technically savvy person, but if someone says the bottom end will be tighter or looser I`ve got it straight away. Whether it`s engineer or marketing terms, if I`ve understood what they meant the communication has been successful.

[fleabag]

17 hours ago, VAMPYRE 5 said:

 

Tone is in your fingers so pracrise amd remember... give those HPF’s a wide-birth! lol

Utter tosh

If tone was in the fingers alone,  basses and amps wouldn't need EQ controls.

[Phil Starr]

22 hours ago, stevie said:

Actually, any speaker engineer will tell you that the thermal rating of the voice coil does affect driver performance. Why else would speaker manufacturers have spent so much time over the years trying to improve the power handling of the voice coil? Think kapton voice coils, high temperature glues, high temperature wire coatings, sophisticated cooling mechanisms, etc.

Kevin, I'd guess that the 15" ceramic driver in your RM cab is underdamped, i.e. a bit loose and boomy, while the more expensive neo version is exerting more control over the bottom end. More bass doesn't necessarily mean better bass. Without measurements or proper data, however, nobody can tell you for sure what's happening.

That's my theory too. Damping is a difficult term because it is both an engineering concept with a very precise meaning and a perfectly good English word with more than one meaning.

Keeping it simple as far as bassists are concerned damping is about how much the cone flaps around when you apply a signal. If it moves too much you get woolly sounding bass and a peak in the bass output with the speaker giving up with really low frequencies. If it moves too little because it is over-damped then the cone is held too tightly and won't move enough resulting in a slow roll off in output as the frequencies get lower. There's a Goldilocks point where you get a flat response and the deepest bass that speaker is capable of. The damping comes from two important sources, the air in the cabinet and the strength of the magnetic fields on the bit of coil inside the magnet. Strong magnets make for lots of damping and need smaller cabs. Finding the Goldilocks point is what all the maths (or the speaker design software) does for you. Swapping the speakers into the 'wrong' sized cabs will change the damping and the bass sound. I think what Ashdown are saying about the Sica's being tighter is that the damping will be greater,  so more deep bass, less distorted but without the artificial warmth of the weaker Ceramic drivers.

Of course damping might tell you the temperature of the porridge but some people like it hot and others colder so you can't please every Goldilocks with the same design solution

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

There are two primary uses for the term damping with respect to speakers and amps. With speakers it's the characteristics of the absorptive lining or filling of the cab, if any. With amps it's as part of the term 'damping factor'. Neither applies in this case, where the appropriate term would be Q, probably Qts, possibly Qes. Neo versus ceramic doesn't even enter the conversation, as Q is independent of the magnet material. There may be an anecdotal relationship between Q and magnet material. Neo is a much more expensive material than ceramic, while low Q drivers tend to be more expensive than high Q drivers, so neo drivers tend to be low Q. But that's by no means a hard and fast rule.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[T-Bay]

5 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Engineers don't use subjective terms like 'tight', which mean different things to different users. Marketeers do.

I am an engineer (chemical) and often use tight in reference to my work, to be fair it’s when describing the boss at the bar though.

[Kevin Dean]

I'm also an engineer & I use words like Good or crap  

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

There are two primary uses for the term damping with respect to speakers and amps. With speakers it's the characteristics of the absorptive lining or filling of the cab, if any. With amps it's as part of the term 'damping factor'. Neither applies in this case, where the appropriate term would be Q, probably Qts, possibly Qes. Neo versus ceramic doesn't even enter the conversation, as Q is independent of the magnet material. There may be an anecdotal relationship between Q and magnet material. Neo is a much more expensive material than ceramic, while low Q drivers tend to be more expensive than high Q drivers, so neo drivers tend to be low Q. But that's by no means a hard and fast rule.

I'm not sure you read my post very well. You'll notice my first sentence says quite clearly that damping has other meanings.Yes I was very obviously referring to Q in all it's guises (mainly Qtc as it happens) but this wasn't written for anyone who already has that knowledge and I deliberately steered away from any technical terms or any algebra which probably isn't appropriate in this forum. My aim was to simplify things enough so that anyone can get a grasp on what is going on inside any cab they buy or decide to modify. I suspect you knew exactly what Ashdown meant by tighter.

I know Kevin is an intelligent guy who likes to experiment and he asked a reasonable question whose answer would interest quite a few people. That's why I jumped in with an attempt at a simple explanation I hope people can follow.

(For those who are confused by this Qes is the damping due to the magnet and coil, Qms is the mechanical damping of the speaker and Qts is the overall damping of the drive unit which combines the two. Qtc is the damping of the speaker plus the damping of the speaker cab, if you get that far it's time to look elsewhere but for simplicity there are lots of 'dampings' or Q's that control the movement of the cone but the biggies are the magnet and the cab design)

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The problem when you use the term damping instead of Q is it causes others to confuse it with where the term damping is rightfully used. Even using the term in association with Q can only lead to confusion, so the preferred explanation of what Q does is control. For instance:

https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

 

[Phil Starr]

So to go back to the original question neo v's standard speakers the material the magnet is made of isn't the factor you should be looking at but the power of the magnet. Neodymium magnets are much stronger size for size than ceramic magnets. Simply that means that you can make a very small (and therefore light) magnet out of Neo or you can make it bigger and get a more powerful magnet. You can do this with ceramic magnets too but a really powerful ceramic magnet can end up weighing more than the cab and then you need to beef up the speaker chassis which also becomes heavier and bulkier until you end up with something which is pretty much impractical for portable sound. Basically you come to a point where Neo makes more sense.

So Neo magnets are just stronger size for size than ceramic magnets. You could just use that to make a lighter speaker but most of the time it's better to make the magnet a really powerful one. That extra power can be used to give you a bit more excursion like the Barefaced drivers, or it can give you better controlled (damped) low Q speakers or you could use it to make the speakers a little louder (more efficient). Usually designers do a little of all three. So technically it isn't the material that is important, you could make a Neo driver that would do exactly the same as a ceramic driver but if someone gives an engineer a better engine, well what do you expect them to do? 

 

[Phil Starr]

Hey Bill we'll have to agree to disagree on the appropriate way to use English. 

Actually that Eminence link is really quite a good place to start delving into Q if people are interested.

[2elliot]

9 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

So to go back to the original question neo v's standard speakers the material the magnet is made of isn't the factor you should be looking at but the power of the magnet. Neodymium magnets are much stronger size for size than ceramic magnets. Simply that means that you can make a very small (and therefore light) magnet out of Neo or you can make it bigger and get a more powerful magnet. You can do this with ceramic magnets too but a really powerful ceramic magnet can end up weighing more than the cab and then you need to beef up the speaker chassis which also becomes heavier and bulkier until you end up with something which is pretty much impractical for portable sound. Basically you come to a point where Neo makes more sense.

So Neo magnets are just stronger size for size than ceramic magnets. You could just use that to make a lighter speaker but most of the time it's better to make the magnet a really powerful one. That extra power can be used to give you a bit more excursion like the Barefaced drivers, or it can give you better controlled (damped) low Q speakers or you could use it to make the speakers a little louder (more efficient). Usually designers do a little of all three. So technically it isn't the material that is important, you could make a Neo driver that would do exactly the same as a ceramic driver but if someone gives an engineer a better engine, well what do you expect them to do? 

 

Simple info... thank you

[stevie]

19 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Engineers don't use subjective terms like 'tight', which mean different things to different users. Marketeers do.

“My slight reservations are with the bottom end. Bass is tight,…” Siegfrid Linkwitz - Dipl.. Ing. (on his website)

"The phrase "deep, clean and tight" comes to mind." Floyd Toole - Phd (in his book), ex head of acoustic research for the Harman Group (JBL, etc.)

"... all other things being equal a sealed box often sounds tighter than a vented box and a vented box tighter than a high order bandpass." Tom Danley, R&D director of Danley Sound Labs on the AVS Forum website

[TPJ]

Do those quotes refer to the acutal speaker itself or the speaker in an enclosure? I may be confused between speaker and driver.

Edited May 15, 2018 by TPJ

[stevie]

Without checking, more than likely in an enclosure.