The bass tone

[oldslapper]

8 minutes ago, discreet said:

TURDS!!

Turks did you say?

[discreet]

Just now, oldslapper said:

Turks did you say?

Er... yes. Yes, I did.

[Dad3353]

Turks..? I don't understand; it makes no sense. Have I missed something..? 

[drTStingray]

I'm a bit surprised at the advice to cut everything below 100 hz and leave that to the bass drum. That leaves a very wide frequency band for it - maybe that's why I hear bands sometimes where the bass drum is the only prominent bass instrument.

The bass control on an LM3 is centred on 40 hz - on a Little Marcus 3 on 65 hz - are you guys really saying cut that to -10? If so I think this is quite unnesessary. 

I tend to have mine set at centre throughout with variation for room/hall issues - I then control minor variation for song style from the EQ on the bass guitar and especially the mids. I get a tight and focussed bass sound. 

The other thing is variation caused by the guitars people use. Some basses are better at creating a tight and focussed bass sound than others - as indeed are some playing styles - it's essential in my mind for instance, for Tower of Power type material - judging by the sound on some recordings these days though a woolly and indistinct sound would seem acceptable if not desirable for some genres (the bass drum providing the focus and the bass guitar being a sort of background drone).

I guess a lot of this comes down to the type of music you play and the band you are playing in. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by drTStingray

[Skol303]

12 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Bedroom: Lovely, bass-rich, slightly mid-scooped tone with a hint of top-end 'air' (sniffs cork, quaffs, spits)

Live band: Mids-boosted clank, leave everything under 100hz to the kick drum

^ Another +1 to this.

1 hour ago, karlbbb said:

I'm always curious about the advice to cut the lows out. A low E is about 40Hz, and a low B is about 30Hz - if you're cutting the lows, then you're surely cutting out the actual core of the notes you're trying to play? It does seem very counter-intuitive!

Even the best high-pass filter won't completely cut out the fundamental frequencies below where you set it: some of that energy will still get through. 'Attenuate' is probably a better and far more pretentious word to use than 'cut', which suggests something absolute  

30-40Hz is just noise anyway. Not much more than rumble; certainly on a bass guitar. You won't have anything musical going on down there, unless you're playing tuned 808 kick drum sounds in a room with immaculate acoustics. Which would be a very dull gig.

And bear in mind that tone is hugely susceptible to 'taste drift' - i.e. what sounds great one day might sound less so the next, even in the same room with the same settings on your guitar and amp. Our perception of what 'sounds good' is not static; it's influenced by all sorts of psycho-acoustic flimflam (something that anyone familiar with mixing will attest to).

It's partly why many of us spend our lives chasing the Holy Grail of tone, suffering from GAS, endless swapping guitars and amps in and out in search of nirvana... only to one day pick up an old bass, set everything flat on the amp and suddenly: "Wow! That sounds amazing!" (there was a thread on here just like that only recently).

Taste drift. I'm convinced it's behind a good 50% of persistent GAS!

Edited May 16, 2018 by Skol303

[Akio Dāku]

Personally I like to think of it in terms of frequency bandwidth and room acoustics. No matter your situation your limited to the human hearing range of 20Hz - 20kHz, thats your bandwidth. So if your playing alone then you have the full range open to you and it sounds "better" if you fill that space, if your playing with a group the you still have the same bandwidth limitation but it's shared, so you have to cut out certain zones in the spectrum so everyone has a space to fit. The extra thing to consider is the room acoustics, different rooms will have different frequency responses so for instance a boost of 6dB in a room with some weird response, might equate to a larger perceivable boost than intended or vice versa if your cutting frequencies. It's all about  fitting/filling the space available to you as a player. 

[discreet]

5 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

...only to one day pick up an old bass, set everything flat on the amp and suddenly: "Wow! That sounds amazing!"...

Quite. After many decades and thousands of pounds, it's become obvious that all you need is a Harley Benton P Bass and a 1990 Peavey TNT Combo. 

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, karlbbb said:

I'm always curious about the advice to cut the lows out. A low E is about 40Hz, and a low B is about 30Hz - if you're cutting the lows, then you're surely cutting out the actual core of the notes you're trying to play? It does seem very counter-intuitive!

58 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

I'm a bit surprised at the advice to cut everything below 100 hz and leave that to the bass drum. That leaves a very wide frequency band for it - maybe that's why I hear bands sometimes where the bass drum is the only prominent bass instrument.

The bass control on an LM3 is centred on 40 hz - on a Little Marcus 3 on 65 hz - are you guys really saying cut that to -10? If so I think this is quite unnesessary. 

I tend to have mine set at centre throughout with variation for room/hall issues - I then control minor variation for song style from the EQ on the bass guitar and especially the mids. I get a tight and focussed bass sound. 

The other thing is variation caused by the guitars people use. Some basses are better at creating a tight and focussed bass sound than others - as indeed are some playing styles - it's essential in my mind for instance, for Tower of Power type material - judging by the sound on some recordings these days though a woolly and indistinct sound would seem acceptable if not desirable for some genres (the bass drum providing the focus and the bass guitar being a sort of background drone).

I guess a lot of this comes down to the type of music you play and the band you are playing in. 

+1 ^^

Certainly cut the crud below 30 Hz using an HPF to tighten up your sound. But I disagree with a 'general rule' that says always cut your bass! Depending on your bass and the type of music you may even want to think about boosting the bass a touch and cutting the treble to deliver a more 'phat' sound. For sure, it will depend on having speakers that can handle the lows well, but the better quality cabs that are voiced e.g. 40Hz to 16kHz should be able to deliver with aplomb.

As my band said to me when I did cut the bass and asked them to listen out for it: 'why on earth would you do that - you're the bass player'?!

I think we're all agreed that a slight boost to the mids in a band mix works wonders. Again this is going to depend on your particular set up but I'm finding that boosting the mids on my Ibanez SR (which has a three way selector allowing you to choose where to centre mid boost / cut) at 250Hz is pretty 'yuk' / 'boxy' mids boosting at 450Hz is fine and centring / boosting at 700Hz the sweetest of the three.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

34 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

30-40Hz is just noise anyway. Not much more than rumble; certainly on a bass guitar. You won't have anything musical going on down there, unless you're playing tuned 808 kick drum sounds in a room with immaculate acoustics. Which would be a very dull gig.

So no point anyone playing a 5 string as the range low B to low E is exactly in 30-40Hz range? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

Well i have been telling you there is no need for a 5er Mr Krow..........

[BrunoBass]

13 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Bedroom: Lovely, bass-rich, slightly mid-scooped tone with a hint of top-end 'air' (sniffs cork, quaffs, spits)

Live band: Mids-boosted clank, leave everything under 100hz to the kick drum

^ Couldn’t have said it better. 

My home tone and my gig tone are very different. My gig tone sounds horrible in isolation with the mids boosted, but sounds great in the live mix.

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Well i have been telling you there is no need for a 5er Mr Krow..........

Haha - and my last three bass purchases / trades were all 5ers, so I guess indicative of how much I valued that particular bit of advice Mr Cuzzie! 

[Cuzzie]

Well i am a bit more meat and potatoes, we cant all have your bling and pizazz buddy. 

On this occasion yours are definitely bigger than mine

[Al Krow]

Your beloved drop D tuning? Oh yes let's see - that would be 36.7 Hz. But absolutely no point in that as "it's just noise anyway". 

Can't agree at all with this sentiment that everything below 100Hz or even 40Hz is to be avoided:  a decent 5 string with quality pups and amp/cab can be just great.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Al Krow

[Osiris]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Most speakers cant produce the lows at significant volume at the fundamental (e.g. consider the fundamental for a low B) . You generally hear all the harmonics and overtones - and the fundamental of your bass is suggested by your brain (pyschoacoustics in action!)... hence whilst cutting the bass through you PA in the sub frequencies can actually clean up the sound of your bass and make it sound bigger and more controlled when the fundamental isn't actually there!

I think there's some confusion over cutting the lower frequencies. No-one is saying incompletely remove every last trace of them at least as far as I understand it) but do attenuate them as they are not helpful to your sound. See the post from @EBS_freak above who explains what's going on. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Osiris

[Cuzzie]

Judicious use of lower notes understanding harmonics of the fundamental in a carefully crafted sound, without the use of a heavier implement to act as a more expensive thumb rest.

Remind me if you remembered your lesson on Drop D tuning vs D tuning.......

[Osiris]

And the 100 Hz figure is not set in stone either. When using my single 1x12 cab, I find that a cut around 60 Hz works wonders, especially when stacked with the HPF in my amp which has a steep slope set at 30Hz. The cab seems to 'breathe' more easily and the sound is subtly but noticeably clearer and punchier.

[Al Krow]

37 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Judicious use of lower notes understanding harmonics of the fundamental in a carefully crafted sound, without the use of a heavier implement to act as a more expensive thumb rest.

Remind me if you remembered your lesson on Drop D tuning vs D tuning.......

Aha! Will fortunately NEVER need to bother faffing with either drop D tuning or re-tuning down to D mid set and then tuning back afterwards, whilst band members and audience look round at what the hold up is from their bass player, due to this wonderful invention: the B string 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Al Krow

[dannybuoy]

I still drop tune my E to D on my 5 string when the song calls for it. If there's a lot of pedalling of the low D going on it sounds much better on the open string and also some D-based riffs are very tricky to play in BEADG tuning.

Try Slither by Velvet Revolver for example! If you play that without dropping to D, in between the next track the band members and audience will look round at what the hold up is from their bass player, as he had to stop and shake the cramp out of his wrist!

Edited May 16, 2018 by dannybuoy

[Cuzzie]

I know Bas, tuning 1 string takes super ages.

Its Ok DB, AK spends even more time on the fret board than he does on BC so he has muscles of steel

[Al Krow]

21 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

I still drop tune my E to D on my 5 string when the song calls for it. If there's a lot of pedalling of the low D going on it sounds much better on the open string and also some D-based riffs are very tricky to play in BEADG tuning.

Try Slither by Velvet Revolver for example! If you play that without dropping to D, in between the next track the band members and audience will look round at what the hold up is from their bass player, as he had to stop and shake the cramp out of his wrist!

That's fair. Very happy for you boys to play your low D's how it best works for you.

But we're getting a little side tracked from the bigger point which is not how we play a low D (which it seems one way or another we are all keen to do!) but that a low D is actually useful / adds something, and that (like a low B, or C) it's below 40Hz - which is a frequency range some folk are suggesting should be cut; that's the point I'm in disagreement with.

And maybe what I am saying is just a nuance anyway e.g. I'm all in favour of 'cutting the crud' below 30Hz (i.e. below a low B) via HPFs to tighten up the low end...so for a four string player cutting below 40Hz, I guess, is equally on point.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

For those interested... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental

[PaulWarning]

low D? I don't even like playing low F

[dannybuoy]

But you probably don't even hear much below 40Hz. You might feel it more than anything. If you chop off the fundamental, your brain hears the higher harmonics e.g. 80Hz and 160Hz, realises what's going on and you hear the bass when it's not there.

1 minute ago, EBS_freak said:

For those interested... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental

Thankfully this explains it better than I could!

[isteen]

Thank you for all your useful remarks.

I play different places on 3 different amps/cabs. I play "party-rock" in one band (Creedence, Georgia Sattelites, Free, Steppenwolf etc) on a modded up Behringer 450 and a 4x12" EBS Proline.

I also play bluesrock on a EBS Classic 450 head + Trace Elliot cabs.

At home I use a EBS Reidmar and EBS Neoline cabs.

 

I don't know much about Hz, but do you suggest cutting the bass and boost the low mids?

 

Thanks for helping out 😉