The bass tone

[Al Krow]

17 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

Are you therefore telling us that your mighty Markbass combo is unable to handle the low B on your 5 string basses? 🤔🧐

Haha. Maybe not as well as the BB2. The Markbass cab is pretty good. But it's a £400 cab and I wouldn't expect it to go head to head with cabs costing 2 to 3 times as much - that wouldn't really be comparing like with like. 

I'll have to fess to not really  focussing on the B string until this thread, partly as I'm only just starting to transition from a 4 to a 5 string. Although there's been the usual load of fun banter / mick tacking, there's also been a fair bit of meaty / eye opening / helpful discussion and insights from my fellow BCers (as ever).

The BB2 appears to be voiced to handle a low B. That's unusual and wasn't something I had particularly been on the lookout for before. There aren't many bass (or FRFR) cabs that have a frequency response down to 30Hz. I'm seriously interested in looking into this further.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Al Krow

[drTStingray]

18 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

Are you therefore telling us that your mighty Markbass combo is unable to handle the low B on your 5 string basses? 🤔🧐

Sorry to butt in to this but I can confirm that my mighty LM3 with 2 X 10 Markbass Traveller cabinet handles my MM Bongo 5 (which incidentally has a hugely powerful onboard EQ) perfectly well. The whole process produces a tight and focussed sound (bass and amp set flat).

With a Markbass 2 x 10 HF as well it's even better and obviously louder as you're getting the 4 ohm output. How do I know? I've stood at the back during sound check and listened. 

Whilst all of the technical talk in this thread about theoretical speaker performance, frequencies and characteristics of the human ear - and much as I'm a fan of Barefaced cabinets, the Markbass and Bongo 5 (or SR5) simply works in my band situation - without cutting bass frequencies. 

 

[CameronJ]

24 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Sorry to butt in to this but I can confirm that my mighty LM3 with 2 X 10 Markbass Traveller cabinet handles my MM Bongo 5 (which incidentally has a hugely powerful onboard EQ) perfectly well. The whole process produces a tight and focussed sound (bass and amp set flat).

With a Markbass 2 x 10 HF as well it's even better and obviously louder as you're getting the 4 ohm output. How do I know? I've stood at the back during sound check and listened. 

Whilst all of the technical talk in this thread about theoretical speaker performance, frequencies and characteristics of the human ear - and much as I'm a fan of Barefaced cabinets, the Markbass and Bongo 5 (or SR5) simply works in my band situation - without cutting bass frequencies. 

 

There we have it. @Al Krow The BB2 may well go down a few Hz lower than your VK210 (and indeed your Markbass combo) but, as has been covered by several folk in his thread, there’s more to producing a good sounding low note than how far down a line goes on a graph.

I know you want to go to The Gallery to investigate further but we did that months ago - comparing the BB2 to the VK210 and the MB combo. I brought my MTD Super 5 and made plenty of use of my B string, after which we both agreed that the VK was producing (in our subjective opinions) a more pleasing tone than both the BB2 and the MB combo. The amp was flat throughout. It was apparent that the three cabs were voiced differently. Again, we were in agreement that the VK - the cab with the most present mids - sounded best (subjectively) with my 5 string bass...and we’ve come full circle to the importance of mids to a good bass guitar tone.

I say bass guitar specifically because it is a harmonically complex instrument. Where the BB2 might be a more clear winner is when running sub-heavy sounds such as our octavers. A COG T16 or even a DOD Meatbox for example may well shake walls a bit more forcefully through a BB2 than through your Markbass combo. Those sorts of pedals put out quite a lot more true sub bass energy than a typical bass guitar, and with fewer overtones and harmonics, especially when the filter/tone controls are closed off.

So my question to you is do you want a BB2 to improve your bass guitar sound, or do you want a BB2 to improve your subsynth bass octaver sound?

Edited May 17, 2018 by CameronJ

[Al Krow]

Hey look I don't disagree that a Markbass rig can be just great. There are plenty of gigging bassists who are finding their rigs work just great (we already had a post from one earlier). And my Markbass AC 121 Lite with its 1x12 is a high end combo and has done me proud for seveal years.

However the Markbass cab whilst undoubtedly good does not stand up in terms of articulation or clarity against either my VK210 or my Mesa 212 (or fellow BCers Tecamp 2x12s) and nor would I expect it to. These cabs are 2 to 3 times the price. You'd kinda hope for a step up in quality.

Agreed too, that you and I felt that in the confines and low volumes of an open shop floor trial we found the VK210 > BB2 >> Markbass cab in terms of tone, in that order with not much between the VK and the BB2. However we didn't focus on the B string much at all (I was pretty much just a 4 string player at the time). 

If you're saying that the BB2 can deal with octavers better, then by the same logic it should be able to handle the low B string notes better, too. No need for mental substitution of fundamentals that are not there (DB's mobile phone speaker point) as this thing will be putting out the actual low note frequencies. And I can stick a Thumpinator in the chain to take out sub 30Hz and keep the low end tight.

I think it's worth checking out further and keeping an open mind?

[Cuzzie]

How does the VK handle what you throw at it out on a gig compared to the MB Combo?

What percentage improvement if any does it give with instrument straight in via an amp or with the pedal board out to play.

Is that not the best test?

[CameronJ]

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

If you're saying that the BB2 can deal with octavers better, then by the same logic it should be able to handle the low B string notes better, too. No need for mental substitution of fundamentals that are not there (DB's mobile phone speaker point) as this thing will be putting out the actual low note frequencies. And I can stick a Thumpinator in the chain to take out sub 30Hz and keep the low end tight.

The point I was making about octavers was that the sound some of them produce relies more heavily on the fundamental note frequency than bass guitars do. Hence, for that specific use, you’ll see more tangible benefits to having a cab which can “really” produce 30hz and below at volume. The benefits of super low frequency extension in a bass guitar application aren’t nearly as great - proven by the millions of bassists out there who are happily able to hear their low notes on 5 string basses played through all sorts of cabs not rated anywhere near 30hz. And by those of us who hate it when we go to a gig and the bass tone is an indistinguishable “boom-boom-sub-sub” mess. We all know that in a gig situation if we are struggling to hear ourselves one of the quickest and most effective remedies is to turn up the Mid knobs a bit, sometimes even in conjunction with turning down the Low knob a bit.

It is literal scientific fact that human ears are less sensitive to lower frequencies and more sensitive to higher frequencies. So with that in mind, why the obsession with super low frequency response as an aid to hearing your bass guitar? Again, I stress the word guitar so as to differentiate from synth sounds.

I guarantee if you email Alex Claber he will inform you of the great dispersion characteristics of his Big Baby 2 and Big Twin 2 cabs. He absolutely won’t, however, attribute that great dispersion to the 30hz frequency response.

[CameronJ]

As a swift end to all this hypothesising, Barefaced let you trial their cabs for a period of time. Do that. Trial a BB2 and compare it to your other cabs at gigging volumes, with your basses, through your pedalboard. If you like what you hear then buy one and sell off your other cabs! Otherwise this is all just hot air taking up space on @ped‘s server 

Edited May 18, 2018 by CameronJ

[ped]

But that’s what the server’s for!

[Skol303]

8 hours ago, CameronJ said:

As a swift end to all this hypothesising, Barefaced let you trial their cabs for a period of time. Do that. Trial a BB2 and compare it to your other cabs at gigging volumes, with your basses, through your pedalboard. If you like what you hear then buy one and sell off your other cabs!

Actually very sensible. These sorts of things can only really proven by testing.

Going one step further, in acoustics we rely on measurements as well as our ears to see and hear what’s going on. As mentioned above, here’s the frequency response in my room where the low end is driven by a 12” subwoofer rated down to 22Hz… and bear in mind this is a highly accurate studio sub, not some PA-hire bass bin:

Not much happening at 22hz is there? And I'd be very surprised if there was.

So unless you’re playing through gigantic, stadium-size speakers, I doubt anyone here will find anything useful going on below 30-40Hz on their bass rig either. Which is absolutely fine, because sub-30Hz we're into whale-song-brown-note territory where the best thing to do in 99% of cases is just roll it off.

PS: there's an urban myth that the actual brown-note frequency (at which you may poop yourself) is 7Hz; and another theory that playing 7Hz at sufficient dB can kill someone. Both theories are of course utter bovine manure, but kudos to anyone willing to experiment  

[EBS_freak]

This thread is completely baffling. 30Hz on stage. No thanks. 30hz out front - mud city.

[Al Krow]

And yet a grand piano putting out 30Hz sounds anything but cr*ap.

The difference being the venue?

[EBS_freak]

How many pieces of popular music can you name where the piano player is lurking around the bottom 5 keys? And how about in a band situation...?

[Frank Blank]

1 minute ago, EBS_freak said:

How many pieces of popular music can you name where the piano player is lurking around the bottom 5 keys? And how about in a band situation...?

58

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Frank Blank said:

58

Are you sure? Name them.

[Frank Blank]

Just now, EBS_freak said:

Are you sure? Name them.

I was kidding, the genuine answer is 0.

[Al Krow]

Well let's start with this one...

 

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Are you sure? Name them.

There must be quite a few (church...) organ pieces, using the pedal board and the 16' pipes or lower..? Not very 'rock', I'll allow, but acoustically there are some thunderously low notes coming out of cathedrals at times. Just sayin'.

Edit: See above ^^ for just one well-known example...

Edited May 18, 2018 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Well let's start with this one...

 

Ah yes, that band classic.

Of course, the only reason that we don’t hear it being played in pub bands is because that 30hz is unachievable with most bands equipment!

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

There must be quite a few (church...) organ pieces, using the pedal board and the 16' pipes or lower..? Not very 'rock', I'll allow, but acoustically there are some thunderously low notes coming out of cathedrals at times. Just sayin'.

+1^^ then add just about any piece of music in the key of D or C where the bassist chooses to make use of the B string low notes, rather than play an octave higher. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Al Krow

[Dad3353]

1 minute ago, EBS_freak said:

Ah yes, that band classic.

Of course, the only reason that we don’t hear it being played in pub bands is because that 30hz is unachievable with most bands equipment!

I'm not sure that that's the point. Musically, from a composition point of view, there is much value in those 'brown notes', so if the composition calls for 'em, they should be reproduced.

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Ah yes, that band classic.

Of course, the only reason that we don’t hear it being played in pub bands is because that 30hz is unachievable with most bands equipment!

Nope - it's 'cos most pub bands don't have the technical ability to play it. Sky on the other hand got it into the national charts (in the days when record sales meant something) and topped at no.5. Not many pub bands will ever come close to doing that methinks!

[CameronJ]

2 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Ah yes, that band classic.

Of course, the only reason that we don’t hear it being played in pub bands is because that 30hz is unachievable with most bands equipment!

You stole the witty retort right out of my mouth!

3 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

There must be quite a few (church...) organ pieces, using the pedal board and the 16' pipes or lower..? Not very 'rock', I'll allow, but acoustically there are some thunderously low notes coming out of cathedrals at times. Just sayin'.

This is true, however in keeping with the recent theme of true note fundamentals being massively important (or not, as the case may be) to the audibility of a given pitch, I feel it necessary to point out that an organ is one of the most overtone/harmonic rich instruments out there. Part of the reason why organ players spend such a great deal of time and money finding electronic keyboards capable of really accurately emulating that sound.

[EBS_freak]

Just now, Al Krow said:

Nope - it's 'cos most pub bands don't have the technical ability to play it. Sky on the other hand got it into the national charts (in the days when record sales meant something) and topped at no.5. Not many pub bands will ever come close to doing that methinks!

But Sky's version is in the studio.

Was any live performance captured... and did the inclusion of 30hz make or break the performance... and was it the bass guitar that was getting down there?

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 27, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 27, 2022 by Jus Lukin