Cello - How Difficult?

[Norris]

I'd quite like to try playing cello. Is it a difficult transition from bass, or sufficiently similar apart from the bowing?

[Twigman]

Apart from being tuned CGDA?

so 7 frets apart rather than 5 ?

Seems totally alien to me

 

Edit: I'd get my intervals all wrong

Edited May 18, 2018 by Twigman

[Happy Jack]

I saw that Jacqueline du Pre woman play one and she made it look dead easy ...

[dudewheresmybass]

"Spare a talent for an old ex cellist?"

i played cello for nine years and grade 8 before swapping to bass. I recently had a cello come in for some work to be done, and I had a sneaky play whilst it was here. 

I fell in love again! I will be looking for one to buy soon 😉

 

The biggest change is the tuning in fifths rather than fourths, but with a little work, it's very achievable 

Edited July 20, 2018 by dudewheresmybass

[Agwin]

Tried tuning one of my basses CGDA once.
Threw my fingering and shaping out (naturally), felt weird - didn't persevere.

Explains why Double Basses are tuned in 4ths though - one hell of a reach otherwise!

[cascanicoff]

My little daughter plays violin, and I am usually by her side helping her during practice. The different tuning feels of course alien, but nothing you may not come to grips with relatively quickly.

The main problem, though, is time. I play bass and guitar and started playing upright this year. I cannot with everything and will have to drop something sooner than later. The same thing may happen to you. Cello is also a very time demanding instrument. 

Now, if you have that extra time, go for it. It will even help you in some aspects of your bass playing. 

[edstraker123]

Burno70 was saying to me last night he was thinking of selling his cello so if anybody is in the market for one it might be worth dropping him a pm.

[Grangur]

My Bro-in-Law is a pro Cellist and teacher. He's tried to give me lessons, but I'm concerned about the tuning in 4ths as well.

Some bassists manage it though:

Also, to get a decent cello you need to fork out so much more!

[Twigman]

Could one tune a cello in 4ths ?

say C F Bb Eb

or D G C F ?

[cascanicoff]

4 hours ago, Twigman said:

Could one tune a cello in 4ths ?

say C F Bb Eb

or D G C F ?

You mean like a bass? I think that Oscar Pettiford had it like that. But I am not sure.

Edited May 30, 2018 by cascanicoff

[alyctes]

That's the only way I can play cello any more...

[NickA]

I've been playing the cello for nearly 50 years and still can't do it. 

Feels like jewelry after the double bass as the strings are really close together and the scale really short.  But it's the tuning in fifths that will get you!  Oh and bowing of course (they don't sound good pizz imho).

Got mine out its case for the first time in over a month this evening (been bassing a lot) and had a hack through a bit of bach and some brahms; quite a different beast to a bass - vibrato intensity and shifting accuracy REALLY matter;  though some of the principles are the same so playing bass does give you a bit of a leg up.

you could tune a cello in fourths but apart from probably snapping the C string by cranking it up to an E, you'd lose a lot of range.  Makes more sense to retune electric basses in fifths (though I tried it and snapped the G string!).  Strangely, fifth tuned sets of strings are available for the double bass (on which it's really hard to do) but not for electric bass, on which it would be fairly easy.  See other thread about alternative tunings ...

 

[Grangur]

Something else to think about is in playing bass we can play a Major scale with the same fingering: 2, 4. 1, 2, 4.  1, 3, 4.

This, I believe, is not the same in cello playing? I guess it's a matter of running out of strings and having to move up the neck?

[paul_c2]

4 hours ago, Grangur said:

Something else to think about is in playing bass we can play a Major scale with the same fingering: 2, 4. 1, 2, 4.  1, 3, 4.

This, I believe, is not the same in cello playing? I guess it's a matter of running out of strings and having to move up the neck?

That's upside down, if its tuned in 5ths instead of 4ths then you won't "run out of strings and have to move up the neck" as quickly. Think about it - on a bass the interval between the same position/fret from first to last string is a minor 10th. On a cello this is a major 13th. So you can play a greater range on the cello without needing to shift positions.

The reason a Cello is not tuned in 4ths is because it doesn't need to be tuned in 4ths. 

[NickA]

 Hence Grangur is correct; on a cello unless using open strings or thumbs, you have to change position to play a full major scale - as in fact you do on a double bass if using traditional fingering (as you don't use the third finger).  The Electric Bass is tuned to make it familiar to double bass players, but it doesn't really need to be as most of us (I think) use all four fingers - which makes one octave scales very easy!

[Grangur]

11 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

That's upside down, if its tuned in 5ths instead of 4ths then you won't "run out of strings and have to move up the neck" as quickly. Think about it - on a bass the interval between the same position/fret from first to last string is a minor 10th. On a cello this is a major 13th. So you can play a greater range on the cello without needing to shift positions.

The reason a Cello is not tuned in 4ths is because it doesn't need to be tuned in 4ths. 

What I do know is the "box" pattern we use for a Major scale on a bass, doesn't work on a cello. On a cello there are different fingerings needed for different scales. I know this through discussing this with my brother in law, who is a full-time pro cello teacher.

[paul_c2]

I don't understand what you mean - on ANY instrument, there's different fingerings for different scales if they contain different notes. But if the scale was a mode of another (eg the natural minor scale is the aeolian mode of a major scale) then (because it contains the same notes, at a different start position) the fingering is the same. But that applies to every instrument, not just bass/cello.

Of course the fingering pattern on the bass (tuned in 4ths) won't work on a cello (tuned in 5ths). But.....the fingerings on a violin translate to the voila, and to the (upper positions of) the cello, because these are tuned in 5ths. Just like the fingering of scales on the 4 lower strings of an electric guitar translate to those of the bass guitar.

Maybe there's a difference simply due to CONVENTION of what people learn first on each, for example while I know what you mean by the "box position" major scale, there's other ways to play the major scale on the bass - and plenty of practical situations where you'd use one of these alternates. And there's other ways to play scales on the cello other than the one learned first, where the root is under the 1st finger.

[Grangur]

Hi @paul_c2,

What i mean is the fingering on a bass is this :

  See more at: http://www.totalguitarandbass.com/scales/16/pattern

This fingering is the same for all scales. If you can start the scale at the lowest note root on the E or A strings, you will be sure of being able to do this same fingering for ALL 12 Major scales. It won't let you down. Every scale from C to Bb, they all use the same finger pattern shape.

On a cello, you can't use the same finger pattern shapes... or so my Bro-in-L tells me. I'm looking into this. I've had this conversation, but looking at the cello fingerboard diagram it all looks repeatable to me so far.   I'll come back on this.

[magee]

I grew up playing the violin, which is tuned in fifths just like the cello. 

You could just learn one chord shape, or box, and repeat it all the way up the neck, but that's not how classical players are trained. They are trained to only move their left hand into certain defined positions (1st position right down by the scroll, third position five semitones higher, fourth position two semitones higher than that etc). So you play a D scale in first position with one set of fingering and an E scale in first position with different fingering, rather than just moving the D fingering up by two semitones. 

On bass we're much freer with moving our left hand around so we mostly take a shape and move it to whatever fret suits us. 

So what you describe (a 'box' that can be moved anywhere) is possible on a cello, it's just not how classical cello is taught. 

 

 

[paul_c2]

8 hours ago, Grangur said:

 

 

This fingering is the same for all scales.

Only because, by CONVENTION, bass guitar players tend to use 1 finger-per-fret all the way up the neck. The scale length of a cello is much shorter, so its quite possible, (indeed its preferable because of the tuning in 5ths) to depart from 1 finger-per-semitone except for the lowest few positions/half positions.

And of course, you don't need me to tell you that the position on the neck for playing the C major scale is different than Db, which is different than D, Eb, E, F etc etc etc

Whether this makes the cello harder to learn - I'm not sure. Its more "stuff" to learn, but then that extra stuff enables you to play things that a bassist would struggle with - so the same music might end up easier to play on a cello than a bass.

[NickA]

Cello fingering is not so different in terms of positions; just that 'cellists have names for them.  It's still a matter of placing first finger on a semi tone note; so on the D string: 

1/2 =fingers on Eflat, E, F, F#.

1st = fingers on E, F, F#, G, 

2nd = fingers on F, F# G, G#

3rd = fingers on G, G#, A, Bflat

etc.  just like the bass on the same string.  But the scale being shorter, you can extend each position, ie by reaching back with one finger from 1st position you can get E flat.  by putting finger 2 on F# instead of F, you can then reach G# with your 4th finger.  In fact you CAN do the same on a bass, even a double bass, by using "pivoting" (thumb stays in same place, hand rotates back or forth around it) .. though traditionalists don't think it "proper".

I think the thing that makes scales and blocks different on a 'cello is the short neck - you can only finger normally up to first finger on G (on the bottom C string) after which you have to bring your thumb round onto the finger board.  This combined with avoiding or deliberately using open strings raises a load of avoidance strategies in which fingering a scale from the same pattern gets non-optimal above about F major whereas on the Electric bass you can go on forever.

That end to the neck does make one thing MUCH easier though.  you can always find "4th" position "blind" as it happens when your thumb hits the heel of the neck, then first finger down = automatic   G, D, A, or E.  you can play almost any tune in first (with forward and back extensions) and fourth position; 2nd and 3rd are niceties that avoid moving your hand around too much.  On the Electric Bass, it is VERY easy to get lost without looking at your fingers now and then!

Anyway.  Easier? No. Different? Yes.  Playing one string instrument won't crack the other but it will give you a leg up.  As a classical grade 8 ish 'cellist I bought a double bass and was immediately about grade 5 (took another 20 years to reach 8 ish).

 

[Grangur]

Just out of interest.. @NickA, you took your grades on the cello and DB. Do you play electric bass? Did you take grades on that too? 

If you do, and didn't take the grades, why didn't you?

I'm only curious. 

[NickA]

@Grangur

Took my grades on the cello through school 'cause that what classical music people did (and also my dad was a/my cello teacher).  Stopped aged 17 and never took another grade on any instrument.  I did have a few lessons on the double bass a couple of years ago and, to my suprise, was given a bunch of grade 8 pieces to play - that didn't seem too hard, so I reckon I'm now  grade 8 "ish" on that too, though I'd really struggle with the aural tests, scales and arpeggios (of which there are many kinds I have forgotten) and wouldn't dare enter myself for the exam!

Yes I do play the electric, have done since 1982, but never even considered grades and lessons, it just didn't seem that sort of instrument and I reckoned I'd just adapt 'cello technique!  Plus there didn't seem to be any formal technique, certainly no associated board exams, and the few books I looked at were based on double bass technique of the day (don't use the 3rd finger etc).  I decided a few years back that the electric bass deserved more formal study and started reading  jazz standards, plus some Bach for fun, which leads to working out some proper positions, shifting strategies and chord shapes (beyond major / minor chord blocks).   I'm no fan of grade exams frankly and took up the bass to get away from that formal stuff and just make some noise ;¬)

Do they do grades for electric bass now then?  Anyone on here taken them?  Fretless / fretted?  Four string / five string?  What kind of pieces are set ie what is considered to be the bass equivalent of Elgar's Cello Concerto and Bach 2 prelude, Portrait of Tracy?

[cascanicoff]

9 hours ago, NickA said:

@Grangur

Do they do grades for electric bass now then?  Anyone on here taken them?  Fretless / fretted?  Four string / five string?  What kind of pieces are set ie what is considered to be the bass equivalent of Elgar's Cello Concerto and Bach 2 prelude, Portrait of Tracy?

There are official grades in modern music and jazz, although I have not taken any (aside from the local music school). I assume that jazz standards would be the equivalent of those pieces you mention.

Very near to where I live, in San Sebastian (Sp), there is Musikene, a registered school of music with official degrees in modern music and students from all over the World. There are many others, of course. Up there in the UK you surely have more than anywhere else in Europe.

[Grangur]

Trinity do exams for electric bass. I have a couple of the books. At grade 1 you learn:  Psycho Killer, Shakin All over, Sheena is a Punk rocker.

Grade 2: You Really Got Me, Need you Tonight, Spirit in the Sky, Comfortably Numb.

Same here, I was curious but don't think you'd ever be asked about grades at a band audition.