Bass in the PA - tips?

[redbandit599]

Hi all, 

I'm running my bass through the pa more regularly with my latest band. It's a good pa, RCF tops and subs. We often get compliments on our sound already but we're going to have a 'tech' session soon to really go through the kit.

My bass sound in the pa isn't as good as my backline, not as punchy and defined. I use a pretty flat eq on my amp, just tweaking to suit the room. Quite a few effects and I di from the amp.

So any top tips for tweaking a good sound in the pa welcome. Is it just a case of ' use your ears' or any magic formula?

We have a Behringer XAir that has plenty of bells and whistles- subs can crossover at 120 or 80hz. We've had them on 120, so flipping to 80 is going to be one of my first ideas.

Cheers

 

 

[CameronJ]

Calling @EBS_freak!

[yorks5stringer]

Make sure you take the low cut off the monitor channel, did a gig yesterday D'id into the PA and it took 4 songs before I could hear myself in the monitor...!

[goblin]

You'll often find with PA that your bass sound is very different to your amp sound, it's because different speakers and desks have different sounds. I run my cab with the tweeter about half, in ears out sounds incredible, but recently I've been listening closely and the monitor sound is a lot less nice than the amp sound. In the same way, the front of house sound is different. On the basis that, cab is a 4x10, I've got Ultimate Ears UE11 in ears with 4 drivers I think they are, maybe more... And our touring PA rig is 4x18 / 4x12, so naturally everything sounds different. 

If you can, from your amp, send a post EQ send from your amp to the PA. I always do, as it gives me a lot more control of how MY sound is, I've sent pre before and had sound engineers absolutely muller my sound... that said, I'd had that with post as well - it all depends on the engineer, though in this instance you won't be affected by the looks of things. With that in mind, spend some time listening to your amp, then putting it in the PA, and just keep tweaking until your ears tell you it's right... and then save it on the desk.

[CameronJ]

Definitely helps if you’re running your bass wireless...that way you can wander out front and get a feel for what you sound like from the audience’s perspective. Saves a lot of guesswork.

[Muzz]

Compression is your friend to define the bass and give it some more 'punch' through the PA. The Behringer should be able to do that, although you'll have to do a little playing with it.

[gapiro]

7 hours ago, goblin said:

 

If you can, from your amp, send a post EQ send from your amp to the PA. I always do, as it gives me a lot more control of how MY sound is, I've sent pre before and had sound engineers absolutely muller my sound... that said, I'd had that with post as well - it all depends on the engineer, though in this instance you won't be affected by the looks of things. With that in mind, spend some time listening to your amp, then putting it in the PA, and just keep tweaking until your ears tell you it's right... and then save it on the desk.

Unless you have a sound engineer - if you have a sound engineer, send it pre so they can shape it to fit in the mix/  the room.

(One of my biggest bug bears is function/wedding bands that dont have a soundman - the sound you set in the empty room at midday when it was 20 degrees is not going to sound the same when you've got 200 people in the room at 7pm when its up at 25 odd degrees)

[KingPrawn]

It might be worth looking into the Aux fed subwoofer technique. We have use it successfully for ages. Simply you just route any instrument that has low frequency is routed via an aux out to the subs. So in our case. Kick, floor tom,key and bass. This reduces muddy sounds and leaves the speakers to do the job they are designed for. We also use RCF and the magical settings on our Presonus desk sorts out compression etc. Might be worth a try if your setting down for a pa geek session. 

Found this link

https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/sound_reinforcement/a_detailed_explanation_of_the_aux_fed_subwoofer_technique/

[Al Krow]

10 hours ago, redbandit599 said:

I'm running my bass through the pa more regularly with my latest band. It's a good pa, RCF tops and subs.

Which RCF model tops and subs are you using?

7 hours ago, CameronJ said:

Definitely helps if you’re running your bass wireless...that way you can wander out front and get a feel for what you sound like from the audience’s perspective. Saves a lot of guesswork.

Or just get a long lead  

[CameronJ]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Or just get a long lead  

Indeed. Although this depends on the size of the room being played. But then for huge rooms one would hope for a dedicated sound engineer...

[EBS_freak]

"My bass sound in the pa isn't as good as my backline, not as punchy and defined. I use a pretty flat eq on my amp, just tweaking to suit the room. Quite a few effects and I di from the amp."

As stated above, the sound that you get from your amp on stage is a combination of EQ, any baked in sound of the amp itself and the influence of the sound of the speaker cab. I am not a post eq DI fan per se from a traditional amp, I would still send the signal to the board pre EQ and then doing any processing at the desk (typically tone shaping, compression and maybe add a touch of saturation). Your on stage tone is your onstage tone. You outfront tone is your outfront tone. What you want to hear on stage can be very different to what is ideal FoH so treat them independently. With regards to those that run loads of effects, then yeah, you want to get the effects in the feed to the PA - but personally, I would still remove the colouration of the speaker cabs... but like many things, this is all subjective.

Some people like to dial in EQ, some people like cab emulation devices. It's all down to personal preference and what works for you. I actually run two desks - one for IEM monitors and one for front of house, for reasons that I have hinted at above. With two desks, I can EQ every instruments differently for front of house and monitors, different processing, different compression and fx etc. If you don't have all these lines of processing, you will be compromising somewhere... but in reality, as long as people can hear themselves on stage so that they can play, an aux with just one EQ over the top to help prevent feedback is what most people can cope with.

The Aux fed sub is a good technique - and probably also worth mentioning, that you don't actually want a lot going through your subs at all. In fact, You may end up HPFing your bass around 80Hz to stop things getting swampy (remember, a 80hz HPF is not a fixed cutouff, you get a slope (typically 24dB/octave) so you still get some bass in the subs but not as much as you'd think. Number one problem with subs is that people tend to push too much through them and it ends up destroying the mix - I'm guessing that this is where your "not as defined" bass problem is coming from. Certainly a decent  PA should outdefine and out punch a traditional backline no sweat. Depending what your tops are, switching to 80 on the crossover will probably help you clear up any swampiness - if thats a problem... and that's before you reach for the desk.

Remember, little bits of EQ, focusing on cuts as opposed to boosts. Certainly you'll want to calm the top end, also some cut around 2-5k and try a HPF at 100 and work down until the bass starts to get a little swampy. You'll find the sweet spot for your setup. But remember! This will change for every room that you are in... but at this point, you should be primarily reaching for the master EQ on that main outputs to compensate for the room. Once you've got your EQ sorted for your instruments, they shouldn't really change from gig to gig.

[redbandit599]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Which RCF model tops and subs are you using?

Or just get a long lead  

RCF 325 Tops and 705 Mk1 subs - we use tops only in smaller venues, one sub in bigger ones, both subs rarely.

Have long leads and wireless, the mixer is controlled via a table so we always get well out front. Most of our gigs are pubs and clubs (which are more like big pubs than with stage etc.)

[redbandit599]

Thanks all - some good stuff in here as always. I like the Aux feed idea, that's worth a play.Thanks for the link @KingPrawn

I'd always erred towards post eq for the DI but @EBS_freak comments above have made me think otherwise might be better. Quick question on this, I use a GK MB500 Fusion and like the valves in the pre, if going pre EQ do I still get the preamp gain sound on my signal? or does a 'pre eq' DI bypass the pre-amp completely, or just the eq stage?

We don't push the subs at all, they just tick over to fatten up the bottom end and support the kick.

Edited May 21, 2018 by redbandit599

[Al Krow]

42 minutes ago, redbandit599 said:

RCF 325 Tops and 705 Mk1 subs - we use tops only in smaller venues, one sub in bigger ones, both subs rarely.

Thanks - the 325s have a 15" woofer and a 3" voice coil; do you find that having the sub-woofers adds anything to the bass or is it mainly for the kick drum?

What cab are you pairing with your GK MB500?

Following this this thread with interest, as most of our gigs are similarly in pubs and clubs and I've not yet been tempted to ditch my dedicated bass gear for these gigs (and I'll simply DI my bass into an in-house PA if we are playing at a 'higher end" venue).

Edited May 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

13 minutes ago, redbandit599 said:

I'd always erred towards post eq for the DI but @EBS_freak comments above have made me think otherwise might be better. Quick question on this, I use a GK MB500 Fusion and like the valves in the pre, if going pre EQ do I still get the preamp gain sound on my signal? or does a 'pre eq' DI bypass the pre-amp completely, or just the eq stage?

Depends upon the amp but typically, it would remove the pre entirely from the equation. If you want the "valve" like pre, then a valve DI is a more expensive alternative. I wouldn't bother with that either at this level, if you've got a capable desk.

When you consider what you can get in the world of PA, I don't know why people get so worked up about maintaining their tone - the processing on modern desks are far more powerful than what you would find in any traditional bass amp. (e.g. compressors, multiband compressors, 4 band parametric EQ with HPF and LPF... and thats before you get into saturation (e.g. valve) emulations and exciters and the like). Try playing around with the amp emulator on your X-Air if you are craving more saturation in your sound. Be careful of over saturation though! Little is good, too much can lead to distortion and too much mid range harmonics (it'll also rob you of low end). Here's the thing, if you can get your bass sounding like you want from the desk alone, (I can't see why you wouldn't - assuming you are running a pretty simple setup) you are onto a massive winner. Get your volume on stage lower and everything will sound much, much better out front.

[Dropzone]

I have played the Wedgewood Rooms circuit venue and they insist in DI the bass, which I think completely makes the backline pointless. Saying that it always sounds epic, so no real complaints.

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Dropzone said:

I have played the Wedgewood Rooms circuit venue and they insist in DI the bass, which I think completely makes the backline pointless. Saying that it always sounds epic, so no real complaints.

Key to a good band sound - low stage volume (or at least being quieter than the PA and the backline and drums being far away enough from the vocal mics to avoid bleed (especially from the cymbals on the drums). Any soundman worth their salt with a handful of toys at their disposal, will be able to do way, way better than you could achieve with just backline.

Compressors, EQs, gates, notch filters... I never understand why bands work so hard to not work alongside the sound engineer.

Mind you, there are some proper cack sound engineers out there.

[Dropzone]

Its more the fact that I don't get My sound from my amp, just a line in advance of the amp, not even from the amp itself.

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Dropzone said:

Its more the fact that I don't get My sound from my amp, just a line in advance of the amp, not even from the amp itself.

Perfect. You amp is a monitor, nothing else. At which point, I would argue that an equivalent priced wedge (or IEM setup) would be even better!

[Dropzone]

Yep, but how come the guitarist gets his amp mic'd??? I get it, but I don't agree with it. Imagine motorhead with no distortion on bass ;-)

 

[EBS_freak]

Just now, Dropzone said:

Yep, but how come the guitarist gets his amp mic'd??? I get it, but I don't agree with it. Imagine motorhead with no distortion on bass ;-)

 

Because the guitaramp is highly, highly coloured, through pre, poweramp and speaker. It's the most dishonest audio chain ever. Capturing that is possible digitally... but a lot quicker with a mic. Even better with some of the great modellers on the market too - and they solve alot of the "but I need to crank it to get my tone" arguments.

And some bassists are less precious and don't see their backline as an extension of their manhood. Let's face it, how many gigs have we been to where we see a guitarist turn up with a 100W Marshall head and 2 4x12s to play a broom cupboard? Idiots. Something like a decent modeller would sound better and more consistent from broom cupboard to stadium.

[Dropzone]

I agree, although they still insist on pre DI even when I have a DI on my amp. I guess they know what works for them and go with it, which is fair enough, but what if it was essential to capture the delay. Imagine royal blood if they DI him pre effects...

 

[Jack]

I have the same desk. My setup is a little different because I use a modeller but I run 'traditional' bass through it all the time so I'm fairly up to speed.

 

As a very general procedure/starting point I start with HPF at 40Hz, LPF at 5KHz and the 'bass' preset on the channel compressor. If I'm the full-time soundman (as often happens when we have support bands or provide the PA for a multi-band backline) then I'll tweak and tweak and often get it to sound better than that. If it's for me and I cant mess with whilst I'm playing, that's normally how it stays all night and it sounds fine.

 

I have an effects preset set in case my helix goes down that has a low mid boost, a high mid cut and most importantly one of the guitar amp effects inserts set to provide some grit and colour. I'm not one for a 'straight in' bass sound and those modelled effects (particularly the guitar amp sim and the valve preamp) can really add some character. Maybe try one of those if you miss the tube colour from your amp.

[EBS_freak]

57 minutes ago, Dropzone said:

I agree, although they still insist on pre DI even when I have a DI on my amp. I guess they know what works for them and go with it, which is fair enough, but what if it was essential to capture the delay. Imagine royal blood if they DI him pre effects...

 

But Royal Blood don’t play spit and saw dust venues. Royal Blood have their own dedicated sound engineer and PA system. There is no unknown quantities. They turn up with their rigs, backline, foh and monitor. No surprises for them. Comparing a band that doesn’t carry around their own foh and processing to Royal Blood is not a sensible comparison.

[Dropzone]

They must have played the smaller venues at some point ;-) I do have a Royal Blood set up, admittedly I don't use it live, I think it is just the fact that us bass players aren't as prescious about "our sound" as guitarists are.