Bass in the PA - tips?

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Dropzone said:

They must have played the smaller venues at some point ;-) I do have a Royal Blood set up, admittedly I don't use it live, I think it is just the fact that us bass players aren't as prescious about "our sound" as guitarists are. 

Yup - and I would put money on them not sounding like they do now.

Funnily enough, I don't know a great deal about the history of Royal Blood so did a quick look at their Wiki...

->  Initially Royal Blood "couldn't get a gig in Worthing for months, and according to Kerr "we ended up just playing a lot of open-mic nights with acoustic singer-songwriters."[7] The band developed their music in the studios of Brighton Electric, and it was during these months that they were signed by Warner/Chappell Music. The band joined the same management company as the band Arctic Monkeys.[6] During the summer of 2013, Arctic Monkeys drummer Matt Helders was seen wearing a shirt supporting Royal Blood (before the release of their first single) during the Arctic Monkeys Glastonbury Festival concert in July 2013. <-

Couldn't get a gig in Worthing for months - probably because no sound guy would want to go near them with a barge pole (?! :P) - Acoustic and open-mic is a lot more simple to mic.

So They were formed in 2013 and got the management deal in 2013 and then out gigging at "proper venues". I would hazard a guess, they had access to their own sound guy and processing from pretty much the word go from these timelines.

 

[redbandit599]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

What cab are you pairing with your GK MB500?

I use 2 112 Berg's - EX112 and HT112 - they are awesome and tbh most places I don't need to be in the pa - but when I am it does give a better spread of sound overall. I'm fortunate in that we do work together to get a good overall sound mix. No egos or volume freaks - guitarist uses a Helix and a small Alto cab for stage monitor. Keys is careful not to get 'too much' - I don't have 'my tone' - we play covers and I'll use a fat dubby octave sound, a fuzz and wah laden sound, clean, overdriven, subtle chorus, distortion and heavy flanging in a typical set. Through my backline I have a good solid punchy tone that I can muck about with using pedals, I just need to replicate that through the pa and DI :-)

I've just started with iems too - not ready to ditch backline yet - but that option is another reason for  really nailing FOH (as I say we're not far off - we get quite a few comments on a big and quality live sound already - but we can always improve :-) )

Edited May 21, 2018 by redbandit599

[EliasMooseblaster]

24 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

So They were formed in 2013 and got the management deal in 2013 and then out gigging at "proper venues". I would hazard a guess, they had access to their own sound guy and processing from pretty much the word go from these timelines.

I had been thinking through the possibility that the engineers would treat it like any other band, as long as RB's guy was doing the signal splitting himself - i.e., mic up his "guitar" amp, and DI his "bass" signal...but then when you frame the timeline like that, it's starting to look like a moot point anyway!

[EBS_freak]

You are probably right - I'd expect all the guitar stuff to be miced up... probably the bass also - although looking at the chain, there's no distortion in the bass (makes sense, distortion on bass robs low end - let the guitar amps take care of that, they do the job better) so it could equally be DIed for a punchier bass signal to work with (less mud from the inevitable mic bleed too - although, I can't confirm whether they do this or not).

From a sound engineer point of view, for the bass setup, I would then mix each component (2 guitar and 1 bass signal) and drop them into a VCA so I have one fader to control the whole of the rig volume,  whilst still having separate faders to change each component if needs be. They've probably got all sort of compression going on with each of the channels... maybe some tight delay, saturation, harmonic synthesisers etc to further fatten the sound (I don't think that their sound can be classed as subtle by any means!)

[EBS_freak]

It's funny reading about this rig... everybody writes as though it's some ground breaking stuff going on. Maybe it is live.. but these sort of tricks have been going on in the studio for years.

[Dropzone]

Yep, they are the first to make a decent success out of it. Very impressive too. Someone will do a Royal Blood pedal soon, if they haven't already.

[No lust in Jazz]

I can't remember the last time that we played without full PA and a soundman - certainly for a corporate / function / wedding / Party engagement we have always added the cost of this hire to our fee.  

Unless someone in the band has an interest in this then its best left some one you trust and more pointedly earns a living at it - I'm not far away from getting a modeller set up, but my pedals leads and Amp (Quilter Bass Block) are a one handed lift and I get a monitor wedge supplied in the price of the PA.

I guess my tip is, unless you really want to - don't get involved with PA set ups. Put your efforts into a great set list and show and have some confidence that you will sound as good as you can given the room - other views are available.

[EBS_freak]

Just now, No lust in Jazz said:

I can't remember the last time that we played without full PA and a soundman - certainly for a corporate / function / wedding / Party engagement we have always added the cost of this hire to our fee.  

Unless someone in the band has an interest in this then its best left some one you trust and more pointedly earns a living at it - I'm not far away from getting a modeller set up, but my pedals leads and Amp (Quilter Bass Block) are a one handed lift and I get a monitor wedge supplied in the price of the PA.

I guess my tip is, unless you really want to - don't get involved with PA set ups. Put your efforts into a great set list and show and have some confidence that you will sound as good as you can given the room - other views are available.

There's a great deal to be said for this. A good sound man is a good addition to your band line up, not just from a mix point of view... but from a performance point of view. Tapped delays, different fx, muting unused open mics, right down to the turning off of all fx when talking to the audience etc.. all add to the professionalism of the performance. I've only ever known of one band that performs with an unsigned band in this manner... and they sounded great for it (although they did still have to carry a desk and split and give the house engineer a L/R).

[EliasMooseblaster]

35 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

It's funny reading about this rig... everybody writes as though it's some ground breaking stuff going on. Maybe it is live.. but these sort of tricks have been going on in the studio for years.

Even live, I know John Entwistle went through several iterations of signal splitting over the years for his stage sound, and didn't Chris Squire have his Ricks modded for stereo wiring to basically do what Mr Blood does?  Not to mention Billy Sheehan's ever-so-subtle bi-amped bass tone...and Royal Blood are hardly the first bass/drums duo - Clatter, anyone?

No, I suspect it says more about how little attention people pay to the bass player in most bands, that it took a pair without any guitarists or standalone singers in the way, and a good PR engine behind them, for most people to realise, "ey up, he's doing all that with one of them new-fangled bass gee-tars."

[EBS_freak]

17 minutes ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

Even live, I know John Entwistle went through several iterations of signal splitting over the years for his stage sound, and didn't Chris Squire have his Ricks modded for stereo wiring to basically do what Mr Blood does?  Not to mention Billy Sheehan's ever-so-subtle bi-amped bass tone...and Royal Blood are hardly the first bass/drums duo - Clatter, anyone?

No, I suspect it says more about how little attention people pay to the bass player in most bands, that it took a pair without any guitarists or standalone singers in the way, and a good PR engine behind them, for most people to realise, "ey up, he's doing all that with one of them new-fangled bass gee-tars."

Pretty much!

[dannybuoy]

54 minutes ago, Dropzone said:

Yep, they are the first to make a decent success out of it. Very impressive too. Someone will do a Royal Blood pedal soon, if they haven't already.

They would make a killing. Fender could give it a go, or otherwise Tech21 as they've shown their prowess squeezing a complex chain into a small pedal with the dUg pedal. But it's the octave up that makes or breaks it and you'd really need EHX for that bit!

[Dropzone]

There must be some simple chip tech wizardry that can do this. Triple button of octave up and fuzz on. jobs a good un. three separate outs with the option to merge them all. £300, everyone would have one.

[Elfrasho]

My new project has everyone going through the pa, and I've bee. Kind of volunteered to run the sound... I thought I had a decent understanding but trying to 'gauge' the sound throughout the night is almost impossible from behind the pa. I'm sure it gets easier, but I do miss the days of turning up and playing! 😅 

[dannybuoy]

47 minutes ago, Dropzone said:

There must be some simple chip tech wizardry that can do this. Triple button of octave up and fuzz on. jobs a good un. three separate outs with the option to merge them all. £300, everyone would have one.

Good sounding low latency polyphonic octave up still eludes a lot of manufacturers, even the £1K Line6 Helix is nowhere near as good as my £50 Mooer Tender Octaver, which is ripped off of the EHX POG. Then it's not just fuzz you want but a Fender guitar amp sim, even better if over stereo outputs with a bit of delay to simulate his wall of amps (I use a TC Mimiq to cop that). But an extra fuzz stomp of course would be welcome as well as +5th, whammy divebombs... It could definitely fit in a Flyrig-sized device though!

[pete.young]

1 hour ago, Dropzone said:

There must be some simple chip tech wizardry that can do this. Triple button of octave up and fuzz on. jobs a good un. three separate outs with the option to merge them all. £300, everyone would have one.

Piece of cake with a VB99, though the second hand price hasn't quite dropped that far.

[dannybuoy]

1 hour ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

Even live, I know John Entwistle went through several iterations of signal splitting over the years for his stage sound, and didn't Chris Squire have his Ricks modded for stereo wiring to basically do what Mr Blood does?  Not to mention Billy Sheehan's ever-so-subtle bi-amped bass tone...and Royal Blood are hardly the first bass/drums duo - Clatter, anyone?

No, I suspect it says more about how little attention people pay to the bass player in most bands, that it took a pair without any guitarists or standalone singers in the way, and a good PR engine behind them, for most people to realise, "ey up, he's doing all that with one of them new-fangled bass gee-tars."

This is the first time that a (mainstream) band has used an octave up in conjunction with that though to pull of such an authentic sounding fake guitar from the bass. Those guys might have great bi-amped tones, but they don't sound like guitars. People are shocked when they find out there is no guitarist in Royal Blood!

Anyway, enough of a thread derail this has been!

[Al Krow]

24 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Good sounding low latency polyphonic octave up still eludes a lot of manufacturers, even the £1K Line6 Helix is nowhere near as good as my £50 Mooer Tender Octaver, which is ripped off of the EHX POG. Then it's not just fuzz you want but a Fender guitar amp sim, even better if over stereo outputs with a bit of delay to simulate his wall of amps (I use a TC Mimiq to cop that). But an extra fuzz stomp of course would be welcome as well as +5th, whammy divebombs... It could definitely fit in a Flyrig-sized device though!

 

12 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

This is the first time that a (mainstream) band has used an octave up in conjunction with that though to pull of such an authentic sounding fake guitar from the bass. Those guys might have great bi-amped tones, but they don't sound like guitars. People are shocked when they find out there is no guitarist in Royal Blood!

Anyway, enough of a thread derail this has been!

If the Mooer Tender Octaver is a really good low latency polyphonic octave up, well this thread has (i) now just cost me £50 and (ii) been a right Royal(ly) Blood(y) useful thread derail! [See what I did there?] 

[dannybuoy]

If you can find a used MkI that is. The MkII isn't quite as good by all accounts and only exists because of EHX's lawyers!

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

If you can find a used MkI that is. The MkII isn't quite as good by all accounts and only exists because of EHX's lawyers!

Aha! That explains the lack of Mk1's for sale and the MkII is nearer £80. I think I'd best stick with the Digitech Mosaic you flogged me, for now, then...  

I'll move this side-conversation over to an Octave Up thread for good order! 

[mrtcat]

I'm a big fan of aux fed subs and find it particularly useful for bass. Too much sub on a bass guitar can leave it sounding too big and undefined. Just a touch gives it great authority and you can tighten the sound just by rolling it off a touch. I'm another one who uses a helix but I find that a slightly middy sounding setting on the helix eq translates to a nice thick tone out front. I have light compression at the start of my signal chain and a slightly more comprehensive one in the mixer (another XR18 user here). 40-50hz HPF filter and 5K LPF.  

[goblin]

I understand that people don't like post EQ, but the way I look at it (I also engineer too), is that as far as I'm concerned, I use the gear I use to help create / add to my sound. My job as a sound engineer is to make it louder but also make it fit the mix too, so I prefer post EQ as that's been set how the bassist likes it.

The engineer on the tour I'm on understands that, and is more than happy for me to send a post EQ send, and he loves the sound he's getting and barely has to touch it. That, in my eyes is how it should be done. I've had an engineer absolutely ruined my bass tone, I had various people say "you've normally got a gorgeous tone, but it was just muddy, what's happened?" And I saw what EQ had been done and all questions were immediately answered. Not cool.

[jazzmanb]

On 21/05/2018 at 12:10, EBS_freak said:

Key to a good band sound - low stage volume (or at least being quieter than the PA and the backline and drums being far away enough from the vocal mics to avoid bleed (especially from the cymbals on the drums). Any soundman worth their salt with a handful of toys at their disposal, will be able to do way, way better than you could achieve with just backline.

Compressors, EQs, gates, notch filters... I never understand why bands work so hard to not work alongside the sound engineer.

Mind you, there are some proper cack sound engineers out there.

Agree on this ,backline is each to their own but it is odd who detailed we get with it when its really just monitoring ,i have a good quality signal from my Sadowksy metro going to a high end DI BOX with eq etc (radial tonebone) going into a good pa where the main band man and sound guy gives me compression of a bit tweaking from the sound check .Always get compliments on the tone

[Dropzone]

Surely the answer is to have a pre and post and fade as appropriate to the venue.

[goblin]

On 22/05/2018 at 16:47, Dropzone said:

Surely the answer is to have a pre and post and fade as appropriate to the venue.

Not necessarily, I set the amp appropriately, and then the sound engineer seems to have minimal fuss with it.

Also another way to look at it (this is playing big gigs not pubs by the way - note that's nothing against pub players, just putting into context), is that I have the gig I have because of how I play and how I sound, my bass and amp both contribute to that sound. Why send a pre signal to allow someone to much it up? I don't have £3k worth of rig to give me a bit of rumble on stage...

[NancyJohnson]

Tips?

I did it two or three times, through necessity rather than choice and while there were no complaints FoH, on stage it was nightmarish; I couldn't hear what I was playing once I stepped away from the throw of monitors.

So here's my tip.  Always try and use an amp.