Knowing the bass sound you want?

[steve-bbb]

variable depending on genre/style

 

[EliasMooseblaster]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

OMG! John Entwistle is definitely one of my bass heroes. "My Generation" is both iconic and just a great bass line. Apparently Tech21 have managed to bottle his tone with their dUg P pedal

More seriously (and to my shame) I wasn't aware that he was also a master 8 string player!! Which tracks was he playing 8 string on? - Homework for me is to listen to all of them...

But the bad news is that the Schecter Stiletto 8 I had previously toyed with getting, is going right back onto my GAS list. Why I thought this thread wasn't going to result in additional GAS (for folk other than @HazBeen) was a definitely naive on my part 

I think I'd heard about a "Live at Leeds" pedal which might have been Tech21's doing...are we thinking of the same model?

Still, your homework shouldn't take too long as I can only think of two tracks on which he used an 8! There's Success Story off Who by Numbers, which I think might be a Rick 8-string prototype; and Trick of the Light from Who Are You, where he played a (very overdriven) Alembic 8.

I don't know whether he crowbarred the 8s onto any tracks on the post-Moon albums, but then I don't know those ones so well (because, let's be honest, they're not very good).

[bassjim]

 

 

- how did you work out / stumble on what sound you were after? Was it a particular bass player or a bass line on a music track (if so, who / what?)

= Was told to go and get a Jazz bass for a gig I was doing at the time by a band member. Did so to solve an argument and found out THIS was the bass that made all the sounds that were in my head. Bass players on a lot of records I grew up listening to used a Jazz so I'm guessing that's how the sound got in there in the first place.

- if you know your sound, how would you describe it? (May be a tricky one to put in words, I guess!)

=Not "my" personal sound but borrowed. Back PU gives me a tight and defined Jaco type thing.(the yanks call it burp?) Both PUs gives me Marcus Miller slap thing or deep and round for grooving. Then there are other variables but mostly its these two simple settings that work over just about anything. (that I play on or bands I play with. Covers mostly.Pop.Funk.Soul.Rock.Indie)

- what are the key ingredients in your signal chain that are essential to delivering 'that sound'. (Hopefully we'll get some great suggestions for combinations of strings, PUPs, EQs, amps, cabs and pedals, depending on which are the most important /really key bits of the chain for you).

= Recording or low volume - Passive Jazz straight into desk or amp. Tone all the way off. PUPs back or both depending on tune. Gigs - Passive Jazz bass into sadowsky preamp pedal into EBS HD350 amp then EBS neo cab/s.

In descending order of importance in the chain:

Passive Jazz bass

My fingers and where I pluck. Usually over near the bridge side near the back PU regardless of PU setting. Regardless of the bass I'd probably always do this anyway for finger style. That's how I get "my" borrowed sound. 

Strings by D'addario because they are nice to the touch and less effort due to low tension.

From there its a preference but not essential. EG:  I prefer the EBS stuff but its not the only amp that can achieve what I'm going for. I like the simplicity of it more than anything. There is a plug and play element to it that appeals to me. I know quickly if I'm going to get an ok tone or a great tone depending on the room so I can get on with accepting what its going to be on that gig and get on with it.

The Sadowsky preamp pedal is more to give a signal boost than any major tone shaping. I use a touch of bass and treble boost. It works like that so I stick with it. I also use  a Chorus pedal when I want a bit of sparkle for a riff or maybe in a solo if it fits with the tune.

 

[Kevsy71]

The 'bedroom' tone I love is a mellow scooped P with no finger noise, just cutting mids on the head (or rolling the tone back 2/3) and low gain/higher master. Useless for a gig, where I'm playing with guitar/sax/harmonica/keyboard, and need the high mids and treble back - so I'll cut the bass below ~120Hz to favour those, which also leaves room for the kick drum. For any slow/mellow numbers the tone control does fine. One or two numbers where I'll crank the gain for a bit of grit. 

[Woodinblack]

Tried stuff, ended up with the tone I like being the sound of an ibanez SR1605 with Nord Big Singles. 

Which is kind of lucky as I have one of those.

Thats my sound, I play in a covers band, I take the treble off a bit for trebleless blues stuff, and I add a bit of dirt for 70s distorted stuff. And that is pretty well it. As it is a covers band, not a tribute band, I make no real effort to try and emulate the original sound of the bass other than that

[Barking Spiders]

The one I'm still after is the Ar$equake. It's a bit like searching for the Holy Grail and I'm 95% there. The tone should have the power and meatiness that can rumble your bowels, a sort of unEarthly cross between JJ Burnel's classic early sound, Louis Johnson or Mark King giving it extra large layered with a bit of Peter Hook.  My Cort GB74 is the bass for the job but I'm working on a combination of the right tone settings and effects units.

[Skol303]

On 5/22/2018 at 20:47, Al Krow said:

- how did you work out / stumble on what sound you were after?

Playing with a compressor.

- if you know your sound, how would you describe it?

Compressed.

- what are the key ingredients in your signal chain that are essential to delivering 'that sound'.

Compression.

You know I’m just messing with you Al 

[gjones]

On 5/22/2018 at 20:53, Reggaebass said:

It’s not really my thing but I heard     we are detective by the Thompson twins the other day  the bass tone is great 

A Roland SH101, I believe.

[Al Krow]

 On 23/05/2018 at 22:00, what @Skol303 was really thinking and meaning to say:

- what do I enjoy doing most in my spare time?

Playing with a compressor.

- how would you describe your most important attribute?

Compressed.

- in terms of humanity's greatest achievements, what would you say compared to the invention of the wheel and the discovery of fire?

Compression.

Skol you know that I'm under a BC Court Order not to mention the C word.

But I do like having a Cali on the end of my pedal board. Maybe just my act of adolescent rebellion? Doubt I'll ever make much use of it - I find it just tends to squash things a little (there, I managed to avoid the C word) and besides no one else seems to notice it having any effect; but it does have ornamental value and it occasionally reminds me of you.  

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

15 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Tried stuff, ended up with the tone I like being the sound of an ibanez SR1605 with Nord Big Singles. 

Which is kind of lucky as I have one of those.

Thats my sound, I play in a covers band, I take the treble off a bit for trebleless blues stuff, and I add a bit of dirt for 70s distorted stuff. And that is pretty well it. As it is a covers band, not a tribute band, I make no real effort to try and emulate the original sound of the bass other than that

+1^^

Aha yes, you've just reminded me. I have you to blame for me getting into Ibby SRs with Nord pups! 

In terms of covers musicians, I think you and @musicbassman, in his post, have pretty much summarised the rule book, certainly in terms of how I find myself approaching things in terms of playing styles  

Edited May 24, 2018 by Al Krow

[PaulWarning]

On 23/05/2018 at 07:28, musicbassman said:

Working in covers bands, I have one standard set up on stage but then use many different styles of playing - open pick, damped pick, fingers, staccato, legato etc etc to get the correct feel for the song - which I think is more important than trying to get an exact sound..

In any case, I think your sound is SO influenced by the type of stage and the room acoustics that micro attention to EQ is pretty pointless. You can have bass heaven on stage but you might be mortified if you heard what the punters are actually hearing.

 

which is the beauty of going wireless, you can hear what the punters are hearing

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

which is the beauty of going wireless, you can hear what the punters are hearing

Yes, it was @musicbassman's comment about playing styles for covers bands, rather than EQ that I was agreeing with.

I would have thought that getting the "sound" right for the audience was always going to be the top priority and if that meant you had a sub par sound on stage, so be it.

[Skol303]

15 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But I do like having a Cali on the end of my pedal board. Maybe just my act of adolescent rebellion? Doubt I'll ever make much use of it - I find it just tends to squash things a little (there, I managed to avoid the C word) and besides no one else seems to notice it having any effect; but it does have ornamental value and it occasionally reminds me of you.  

Aww I’m flattered! 😘

No sense having a compressor in your signal chain if you’re unsure how to use it. Might as well swap it out for something else; maybe a nice high-pass filter.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Skol303 said:

Aww I’m flattered! 😘

No sense having a compressor in your signal chain if you’re unsure how to use it. Might as well swap it out for something else; maybe a nice high-pass filter.

I'll get there in the end with the compressor...

"HPFs are a must for all bass players" - a view expressed by many. I have come to agree. I've actually got the AcBsPre (often x2) effect, which can be used as an HPF, in my MS-60B in pretty much on every effects patch and also in the 'clean' by-pass so I have an 'always on' HPF.

I was surprised that the Sound Tech at our gig last night had engaged the HPF on the bass at 220Hz on his iPad. Seemed a bit on the high side to me. I asked him to pull that down to around 80Hz, but we were getting 'sympathetic boominess' from the venue at around 90Hz so we compromised at around 100Hz for the  HPF to start to cut from. Sounded good. Learned my lesson about first and second harmonics (and above), rather than the fundamental, being key.

He was actually a half decent sound tech. He didn't even bother with a sub woofer which others had used and overly boosted for a bloated sound but kept things light and tight. Worked very well.

As an aside - if you know any decent sound techs based in and around London, this Central London venue is on the look out for some fresh talent. Please PM me.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Al Krow

[Skol303]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

I was surprised that the Sound Tech at our gig last night had engaged the HPF on the bass at 220Hz on his iPad. Seemed a bit on the high side to me. I asked him to pull that down to around 80Hz, but we were getting 'sympathetic boominess' from the venue at around 90Hz so wee compromised at around 100Hz for HPF starting to cut from. Sounded good. Learned my lesson about second harmonics and above, rather than the fundamental, being key.

Wow, that is high for a HPF on bass! 80Hz is a fair starting point; I’d maybe start even lower but always a case of horses for courses (as discussed in the recent thread). If it sounded good being rolled off at 100Hz, then it is good  

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

As an aside - if you know any decent sound techs based in and around London, this Central London venue is on the look out for some fresh talent. Please PM me.

I’m sadly not on the London scene to make any recommendations but will happily mention it to some of my mates down there. Will PM if I get any feedback.

[Ghost_Bass]

Easy, the sound in my head is FRFR. See sig for the best gear i've found for the job, no knob noodling anywere, but i can pick any piece of gear and quickly get my sound with a bit of tweaking and, the most important part, 50% of my tone is really in my fingers.

[jazzyvee]

Hmm, I thought all basses sound the same, it's the fingers that make them sound different........ 

I''ll get my coat....

[Al Krow]

40 minutes ago, jazzyvee said:

Hmm, I thought all basses sound the same, it's the fingers that make them sound different........ 

I''ll get my coat....

I'm very tempted to ask (before you get your coat) how many basses you have tried and were they by any chance both Fender Jazz? 

[Akio Dāku]

Great topic idea and I totally agree with @Al Krow with regards to it being 

On 22/05/2018 at 19:47, Al Krow said:

easier if you're writing your own material / in an originals band, than if your focus is more covers

I think with covers your inevitably chasing a multi-functional sonic palette and finding the elusive "Swiss Army Tone"  is a nightmare and as previously touched on the gateway to a serious case of G.A.S..    Personally like most I started off aspiring to sound like my early heroes; Alex Katunich of Incubus and Stuart Zender of Jamiroquai. I chased the "Super Jazz" Warwick Streamer sound for many years but always being rather broke I've never managed to actually own one.  I was about 16-17 when I discovered a through neck ,Korean, Spector 5 string at a local music shop  which I snapped up for £450 quid (To this day the most I've every spent on anything other than a car). That bass has been the foundation of my tone ever since but now it exists in a heavily modded state. After the "Super Jazz" obsession I went through a Hardcore Punk phase and sought the Music Man Stingray Punk tone of Players like Jason Sinclair of Belvedere. So naturally instead of forking out for a new bass I just got a MM pickup and squeezed it in-between the two soap-bars already  in my Spector. At this point I disconnected the Bridge pickup to wire in the MM pick-up to the Spector "Tone Pump" circuit and used my bass like that for a long time. After the Punk phase I discovered Progressive Metal and just wanted to sound like Justin Chancellor of Tool so I got a decent pre-amp pedal (a Dave Hall Amps-VT1) and of course a Digitech Whammy. In my mid to 20's I became disillusioned with bands and started writing solo material, I didn't want to spend more money on gear but I wanted a wider tonal palette to play with so I re-wired my bass in passive so I could get my bridge pick-up running again, I figured I have my pre-amp pedal so why do I need one in my bass? So that about brings me to just before where I am now, except I should probably mention that along the way, because of financial issues I'd sold my Amp/Cabs. So I'm writing solo stuff I still want to gig it but I'm broke AF, that's when I spent the last two years creating this solution;

  

My no amp solo rig in a box, its two parallel bass chains and a vocal chain  with click and backing tracks coming in from the tablet, all monitoring through hard wired in-ear's and I send a single  mono line out to the front of house and that's my sound. So really I came to know the sound I wanted, through years of seeking to sound like other people and I ended up finding "My Sound" through combining them all and trying to solve a problem within the financial constants I had to work with. Oh and here's a few pics of my Bass;

    

If anyone's interested I'm running 1 meg CTS Log pots for both volume and tone and a 47uF paper in oil cap.  

 

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Akio Dāku
Typo, there's probably more I've not spotted but ho hum. 😜

[jazzyvee]

On 24/05/2018 at 18:53, Al Krow said:

I'm very tempted to ask (before you get your coat) how many basses you have tried and were they by any chance both Fender Jazz? 

OK good call. I must add I'm no expert on basses or the business of bass. One of the reasons I read and participate in this site is to learn.

Anyway, here are the basses I've owned, whilst I was a guitarist so never played them enought to gain any insight to bass tone really. I  used them mainly for working out song ideas and the occasional once in a blue moon gig or jam. ( I did learn that none of them could make my fingers sound the way I wanted them too)

1970's Woolworth bass, Washburn Falcon 4 string bass, Wasburn Force ABT (5 string) hope I got the model right, Musicman Sterling 4. (the last one I had for about 3 years and sold about 2007).

Other than that the basses I've actually played over the last 10 years are: 

One Fender Victor Bailey Jazz bass, maybe about 3 other Fender Jazz basses, a warwick bass, a steinberger,  Fodera Anthony Jackson & Yin Yang, Wal fretless, Ritter R8, Roya and Corsa, a couple of Jaydee bass, an old  antoria semi acoustic short scale bass and most of those were during one afternoon at the Bass Gear shop.

Out of those, I didn't get a wow factor or GAS from playing any of them and the ones that made my fingers sound the best was the jaydee and the Victor Bailey Signature bass.
That said I can't see myself buying any of them, though never say never and they all make other musicians fingers sound good when I've heard them being played. :-) I hope that answers your question. :-)

 

[Al Krow]

@jazzyvee

I think you're being overly modest about your expertise and experience, fella! But I am surprised you've not found a difference in sound from basses, generally?

Here are three in my herd and some typical set-up / settings:

• Yamaha BB1025, rounds, Alnico P pup (or P/J), purely passive, dial the tone / treble right off - lovely rich subby tone
• Ibanez SR1800, rounds, big single Nord pups, with both neck and bridge pups engaged, active mode with mids slightly boosted at 700Hz on the bass - aggressive punchy growl (not quite Warwick MEC but not far off), will cut through any mix
• Ibanez Portamento fretless, flats - delicious smooth fretless tone

I'm sure you would have no difficulty in working out which was which listening 'blind'. In fact, I suspect even my band who are generally oblivious to all nuances of bass tone would hear the difference in the mix at volume.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Al Krow

[NancyJohnson]

Early on I recall being obsessed with Steve Priest, then Geddy Lee, then dUg, so it really came down to dirty clank.  All hail Tech 21 NYC.

It doesn't matter whether I'm playing a Squier Badtz-Maru or one of my Lulls; that's the tone I'll dial up.

 

[Cosmo Valdemar]

On 23/05/2018 at 13:55, EliasMooseblaster said:

I think I'd heard about a "Live at Leeds" pedal which might have been Tech21's doing...are we thinking of the same model?

Still, your homework shouldn't take too long as I can only think of two tracks on which he used an 8! There's Success Story off Who by Numbers, which I think might be a Rick 8-string prototype; and Trick of the Light from Who Are You, where he played a (very overdriven) Alembic 8.

I don't know whether he crowbarred the 8s onto any tracks on the post-Moon albums, but then I don't know those ones so well (because, let's be honest, they're not very good).

The Tech 21 Leeds does the LAL tone perfectly, unsurprisingly! A P bass helps, but it nails the Hiwatt drive. I use it with a Thunderbird too. It's been my preamp for a few years now. 

Don't pay too much attention to the Tech 21 clip though as it misses the point entirely. 

As for the post-Moon albums, I think they are very good in places. Just not great Who albums, if that makes sense. Both are covered in Entwistle's monster Alembic, both 4 and 8 string, and are worth hearing for the tone and playing if nothing else - both feature some of his finest studio work.

[Elfrasho]

I let the sansamp clone on my b3n do all my tone sculpting. I also have a roll off everything below 50hz, I feel it just makes a better defined bass tone. 

 

I also ride the tone knob for fatter bits. 

 

But after that, I just accep whatevers coming out FOH and just go with it. I don't spend ten minutes fine tuning before every set, I don't see the point. 

[MartinB]

I couldn't tell you exactly what "my sound" is, but the day I first tried flatwounds I knew I'd taken a big step in the right direction.