1x12 bass cab to replace a 4x10

[nancyraygun]

hello people. i play in a punk band - fender P, Orange TB500, fairly simple stuff. my main cab is an ashdown 4x10 but im looking to downsize with the idea being that i can walk from the car to the gig/rehearsal room with cab in one hand, amp in the other, bass on my back.

 

i've heard good things about the barefaced super compact, it looks great and it's as light as anything but wonder whether it will be loud enough to keep up with 2 guitarists and a drummer. i've also been looking at the Orange OBC212, with by all accounts would be able to keep up despite being heavier.

i'm not too fussed about tone at this point as I like what i get from the TB500, so it's just a case of whether these two cabs can hold a candle, volume wise, to a 4x10. if anyone else has any other suggestions i'd like to hear them.

cheers.

[chris_b]

Try the Barefaced Big Baby 2. A BF cab is the only 112 one cab solution I know of that will keep up with a 410. Also the BF Two10 will probably equal the volume from your 410.

You might like the TB500 in your current set up but your overall sound will change significantly with any new cab.

[dave_bass5]

With the risk of sounding like like a broken record, the BB2 i had was left way behind when i used a cheap Peavy 4x10 at my rehearsal studio.  The BB2 is a great cab, but no way can it put out the same kick and punch as every 410 out there, and in my experience not even a cheap one.

Just to be clear, ‘keep up with a 410’? What brands are we talking about there? Exactly what 410’s have been tested next to a BB2? Obviously not the Peavy as ive had first hand experience with that and the BB2 was sorely lacking. Does it keep up with the BF 4x10?

[fretmeister]

Barefaced Two10. 

 

[machinehead]

3 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

With the risk of sounding like like a broken record, the BB2 i had was left way behind when i used a cheap Peavy 4x10 at my rehearsal studio.  The BB2 is a great cab, but no way can it put out the same kick and punch as every 410 out there, and in my experience not even a cheap one.

Just to be clear, ‘keep up with a 410’? What brands are we talking about there? Exactly what 410’s have been tested next to a BB2? Obviously not the Peavy as ive had first hand experience with that and the BB2 was sorely lacking. Does it keep up with the BF 4x10?

What model of cheap Peavey 4x10 was it Dave?

Frank.

Edited May 27, 2018 by machinehead
spelling

[chris_b]

4 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

With the risk of sounding like like a broken record, the BB2 i had was left way behind when i used a cheap Peavy 4x10 at my rehearsal studio.  The BB2 is a great cab, but no way can it put out the same kick and punch as every 410 out there, and in my experience not even a cheap one.

Just to be clear, ‘keep up with a 410’? What brands are we talking about there? Exactly what 410’s have been tested next to a BB2? Obviously not the Peavy as ive had first hand experience with that and the BB2 was sorely lacking. Does it keep up with the BF 4x10?

I can't comment on your preferences or experiences with amps and cabs or your choices regarding your own sound.

The OP is looking to replace a 410 with a 112. There are cabs that will compete and cabs that won't even come close. Others can put up their own suggestions.

A BB2 is an 800 watt cab putting out 127 dB. Alex gives a comparison between this cab and a 410 on the website. The OP doesn't give the model number but Ashdown 410's range from 450 watts to 650 watts and no SPL figures given. I assume the OP isn't running his cab at the full rated power, or else he would have blown it long ago. Realistically max figures are rarely reached unless you're looking at much more expensive cabs, so the BB2, the SC (600 watts and SPL 127 dB) or Two10 (500 watts 125dB) are worth investigating as a realistic replacement. 

The BB2 was sorely lacking? I haven't seen any other comments or posts anywhere that have described any BF cab as that. You don't have to like them, but "sorely lacking"? That surprises me.

Edited May 28, 2018 by chris_b

[MOSCOWBASS]

Happy BB2 owner here, but the Greenboy F112 would be in the same ballpark, although slightly heavier 

The BB2 replaced my Epifany ul410 and is subjectively just as powerful , in fact I used to notice ul410 compressing at higher volumes, Tecamp Puma 1000 bridged, 1000 watts in to the 8 ohm Epi ul2 4x10, haven't noticed this with the BB2

Edited May 28, 2018 by MOSCOWBASS
Additional info

[Lozz196]

It depends on your ears and their preference, but I`ve never found any 1x12 that has a sound that I like as much as an old 410. Sure there are cabs that go loud enough - possibly (maybe even probably) louder - but they just don`t have the same "amount" of sound, that depth that seems to only come from multiple speaker cones working together. But like I say, that`s my preference, not a fact, and if in search of a 1x12 then Barefaced would be my first stop. We did a cab shootout a few years back and the cab that really impressed me was the Super Midget, an amazing amount of sound came out of that little fella.

But to the original post, and the OBC212 - I`ve heard a couple of bassists use these with the OTB and the sound has been great.

[Opticaleye]

I've owned 2 Barefaced One10's and no way are they as loud together as a typical 4x10. From what I gather the Two10 is much the same as 2xOne10's as you would expect.

Something based around a Kappalite 3012LF would be the only real option such as a Fearless F112 or the TKS 1126 (I own 2 of these and they are loud given enough watts).

I'd avoid the Orange given the fact that it's Isobaric. Not many real world advantages over a single speaker and plenty of disadvantages including weight.

[Al Krow]

It's a bit of a shame that the BB2 is only available as an 8ohm cab. If Alex made this available as a 4ohm, its power handling and output, excellent articulation, broad usable frequency response range and wonderful portability would make it a very compelling proposition.

I've just emailed the BF team to see if a 4 ohm BB2 might be a possibility. (That would allow me to make use of the full power output from my amp, which is 450W at 8ohm but 900W at 4ohm). But I'm guessing that I am not the first person who has requested this and am presuming it is therefore not going to be an option?

Edited May 28, 2018 by Al Krow

[naxos10]

I not sure what level of total volume is required in reality but we do two punk numbers and my 4 ohm Barefaced Two10 fed from an Ashdown Retroglide has never struggled against a loud drummer and 2 guitarists. In fact I have only had compliments about the sound.

The 4 x 10 fed by an Eden 350 we use at practice does not really cut it in the same way.

Edited May 28, 2018 by naxos10

[davideuck]

At some point the head you are using wil affect the result. I have two Markbass 804, 4x8" for 800 watts 8 ohm, I was on the limit side when powering one cab only with an F500, pub gig with a rock band. Then I switched to the SD1200 and that cab turned out to be a little beast, now I do rock gigs with master at 9 o'clock with a single cab. So, the 4x8" is obviously less efficient than a 4x10" but with 800 watt power handling at 8 ohm, if you give it the right amount of power it'll compete with larger cabs easily. I think it's the same with single "super" 12 cabs, give them the right power and you can compete. If you are comparing a 4 ohm 4x10" powered with a 500 watt head you'll never reach same results with the same head and a single 8 ohm 12" cab, even the best 12" cab on the planet. All IMO obviously. 

[Opticaleye]

7 minutes ago, davideuck said:

At some point the head you are using wil affect the result. I have two Markbass 804, 4x8" for 800 watts 8 ohm, I was on the limit side when powering one cab only with an F500, pub gig with a rock band. Then I switched to the SD1200 and that cab turned out to be a little beast, now I do rock gigs with master at 9 o'clock with a single cab. So, the 4x8" is obviously less efficient than a 4x10" but with 800 watt power handling at 8 ohm, if you give it the right amount of power it'll compete with larger cabs easily. I think it's the same with single "super" 12 cabs, give them the right power and you can compete. If you are comparing a 4 ohm 4x10" powered with a 500 watt head you'll never reach same results with the same head and a single 8 ohm 12" cab, even the best 12" cab on the planet. All IMO obviously. 

+1

I had a Markbass NY604 and TTE500 and it would struggle by itself at 8 ohms. I ordered my TKS cabs and bought a TTE801 and used the NY604 at a rehearsal while my cabs were being built. 

The TTE801 and NY604 combination was a killer. I realised then that what people were saying about the 500w Markbass amps limiter kicking in at 8 ohms was the issue and not the cab at all.

I could have saved myself some serious money!

[davideuck]

In fact I'll never buy a 500 watt head again, I had good result with the Tube 800, SD1200, TTE800 and the Glockenklang Blue Rock.

[stevie]

16 hours ago, chris_b said:

A BB2 is an 800 watt cab putting out 127 dB. Alex gives a comparison between this cab and a 410 on the website. The OP doesn't give the model number but Ashdown 410's range from 450 watts to 650 watts and no SPL figures given. I assume the OP isn't running his cab at the full rated power, or else he would have blown it long ago. Realistically max figures are rarely reached unless you're looking at much more expensive cabs, so the BB2, the SC (600 watts and SPL 127 dB) or Two10 (500 watts 125dB) are worth investigating as a realistic replacement.

Rated in the industry-standard way, the power handling of the BB2 is 400 watts. I'm afraid you need to be very careful if you're going to repeat the claims on the Barefaced website. Also, please explain how you get 127dB.

Ashdown do give SPL figures. They are between 101 and 103dB @1m. So you can now tell us what their maximum output is. We're listening.

And that's quite an interesting claim you're making, Chris, that Ashdown cabs can't handle their rated output. What do you base that on?

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, stevie said:

Rated in the industry-standard way, the power handling of the BB2 is 400 watts. I'm afraid you need to be very careful if you're going to repeat the claims on the Barefaced website. Also, please explain how you get 127dB.

Ashdown do give SPL figures. They are between 101 and 103dB @1m. So you can now tell us what their maximum output is. We're listening.

And that's quite an interesting claim you're making, Chris, that Ashdown cabs can't handle their rated output. What do you base that on?

This is actually a bit of an eye opener Stevie, thank you. I had assumed up till now that the BB2 could handle 800W RMS because on the BF website it states:

RECOMMENDED AMP POWER

150-800W RMS

But, following your post I've just spotted that refers to recommended "amp" power and I've read elsewhere that 'recommended amp power' is typically approximately double the power handling capacity of the cab. So on that basis I see how you have arrived at the BB2 being a 400W RMS cab when rated in an industry-standard way. That is a bit of a game changer for me.

To be fair on Chris with regard to the dB, the BF website states:

PISTONIC SENSITIVITY

97dB

MAX CONTINUOUS BROADBAND & LF SPL

127dB - similar to what a high quality 2x12" or 4x10" cab can manage before the lows fail to keep up with the mids

By way of comparison my VK210LNT has a 1200W AES rating. From what I have gleaned from the net AES and RMS are broadly similar (see below). If I have my facts correct then, I won't want to be swapping from a 1200 AES (i.e. RMS) cab to one that is 400W (RMS) rated. 

The VK is also separately rated 100dB "Pistonic sensitivity" vs 97dB  for the BB2 - any significance to that?

What is AES power?

The AES (Audio Engineering Society) publishes a standard for the measurement of loudspeaker component parameters. Generally speaking, this standard calls for a 2-hour test using pink noise with specified dynamics and with a frequency content that matches the component`s frequency range. Although it is a standard for components, it is often extended to the different ways on an active system. The rating always derives from RMS voltage or current measurements, therefore the rating corresponds to average (“RMS”) power.

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Al Krow

[stevie]

Al, I would expect the VL210LNT to be more sensitive than the BB2 because of the greater cone area of the 2x10 drivers. Whether it is actually 100dB depends on how they have measured the cab, and Vanderkley don't go into any detail here (although 100dB doesn't sound unreasonable). If a manufacturer states the conditions of measurement - AES standard, for power handling as you mention - you know what you are dealing with and you can make comparisons. However, if the manufacturer doesn't say how they arrived at their figures, they are meaningless. Like the 127dB Chris quoted.

The specs for Mesa Boogie's Subway cabs are a model of how to spec a bass cab.

[chris_b]

53 minutes ago, stevie said:

We're listening.

Ah, so we've woken the most anti Barefaced person on Basschat.

Al Krow, I'd suggest both you and the OP run a search on Barefaced cabs and read what actual owners say about their cabs in real gigging situations. There have been a couple of positive posts in this thread that seem to have slipped under the radar.

[stevie]

I take it that this personal attack is your way of avoiding answering my perfectly reasonable questions. Perhaps in future you should refrain from making claims that you can't back up.

[JohnDaBass]

Oops now, now  then boys settle down, settle down! 

Can someone get the biscuits please!

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, chris_b said:

Al Krow, I'd suggest both you and the OP run a search on Barefaced cabs and read what actual owners say about their cabs in real gigging situations. There have been a couple of positive posts in this thread that seem to have slipped under the radar.

Hey Chris - I'm open to BF and I know there is a lot of love for them from a whole lot of folk who know their onions (including you!). I've actually very recently been seriously thinking about getting a BB2 because of how light it is (which seems to be becoming a more important factor for me with each passing year) and had just enquired from Alex whether he can provide it in a 4 ohm version, and this thread is very timely.

But we should acknowledge that Stevie has raised a good point. Until now I had assumed that the BF BB2 was an 800W RMS cab, but if it is actually 400W RMS that does change my perspective and a whole bunch of other cabs e.g. the TKS112  which I hadn't properly considered before, and indeed the VK112 which is on my radar and rated 600W AES, become comparable / even potentially better. I'll have to admit that, whilst Alex may not have meant to do so, I have been a little bit misled by how the specs have been presented on his website and I'm grateful to Stevie for bringing it to our attention. In the same way that Trickfish describe their well regarded 1K amp as "1000W" when that is just the peak rating and not the RMS value (when pretty much everyone else is providing the RMS value), it does make me more cautious about the product and hesitant to make the jump.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Al Krow

[dave_bass5]

20 hours ago, chris_b said:

I can't comment on your preferences or experiences with amps and cabs or your choices regarding your own sound.

The OP is looking to replace a 410 with a 112. There are cabs that will compete and cabs that won't even come close. Others can put up their own suggestions.

A BB2 is an 800 watt cab putting out 127 dB. Alex gives a comparison between this cab and a 410 on the website. The OP doesn't give the model number but Ashdown 410's range from 450 watts to 650 watts and no SPL figures given. I assume the OP isn't running his cab at the full rated power, or else he would have blown it long ago. Realistically max figures are rarely reached unless you're looking at much more expensive cabs, so the BB2, the SC (600 watts and SPL 127 dB) or Two10 (500 watts 125dB) are worth investigating as a realistic replacement. 

The BB2 was sorely lacking? I haven't seen any other comments or posts anywhere that have described any BF cab as that. You don't have to like them, but "sorely lacking"? That surprises me.

Ok, maybe ‘sorley’ was a bit strong, but when i say lacking, I’m talking about not having the punch and volume compared to the 410 i was using. I’m not talking about the BB2 lacking per say. The 410 had a lot more body compared to the BB2 but i did like the BB2 for a while. I’d also add the same about the Retro 210 i had, although thats off topic for this thread.

I have no idea what the model of this old cab was, it was nothing special as far as i know., but it looked old and heavy. I ended up using it over about 4-5 rehearsals, and we record all our rehearsals and even these recordings showed the bass was more prominent in the mix, it’s just had more body. I just couldnt get the kick and overal clean but solid tone from the BB2, even though the BB2 did sound good in isolation. 

I believed all the blurb about the BB2 on the BF website, but looking back Its too generic and non specific to make for good advice, and i can testify to that. Sure, I’m just one person, but I know of others that feel the same. Its just another opinion at the end of the day though, and people can take or leave the advice (although in a BF thread its more likely that some need to discredit  it as well).

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by dave_bass5

[Opticaleye]

 

I liked the tone of my One10's but I had concerns over the fact that they couldn't keep up with my band's moderate volume in certain pubs (acoustically damped by carpets and furnishings). Despite everything they are very small cabinets and do not defy the the laws of physics. I confess that I succumbed to the hype and believed they might be as loud as, say, a Markbass NY121. Unfortunately they're not. I actually replaced the 2 One10's with one Markbass Std121HR and have done a number of gigs with that, with no issues and plenty of spare volume available.

I also think there is a valid criticism of using non-standard optimistic specs on the website ("usable frequency range" etc among others) and the general tone of the site inferring that other manufacturers are "behind the game" in design terms. Don't get me wrong, Barefaced cabs are a good option among many good options but there are other cabs out there are on a par or maybe even better.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Opticaleye

[Kevin Dean]

I've owned  2 x BF super compacts & a super12T  Amongst other makes & I really don't think that you will get a 1 x12 to match any 4 x 10 that I've  heard . For myself I found something like a Ashdown RM 1 x12 on top of a RM 1 x15 gives me  all I need  , light weight & both for the same price of a high end  1 x12 .

[Phil Starr]

On ‎27‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 13:54, nancyraygun said:

hello people. i play in a punk band - fender P, Orange TB500, fairly simple stuff. my main cab is an ashdown 4x10 but im looking to downsize with the idea being that i can walk from the car to the gig/rehearsal room with cab in one hand, amp in the other, bass on my back.

 

i've heard good things about the barefaced super compact, it looks great and it's as light as anything but wonder whether it will be loud enough to keep up with 2 guitarists and a drummer. i've also been looking at the Orange OBC212, with by all accounts would be able to keep up despite being heavier.

i'm not too fussed about tone at this point as I like what i get from the TB500, so it's just a case of whether these two cabs can hold a candle, volume wise, to a 4x10. if anyone else has any other suggestions i'd like to hear them.

cheers.

Nancyraygun are you still in the room?

Anyway, here's the thing all other things being equal the efficiency of loudspeakers is proportional to their surface area, doubling the cone area gives the equivalent of doubling the amplifier power. There is nothing magic about modern speakers just a gradual improvement in materials and engineering which enable you to squeeze a little more sound out of a modern drive unit. The state of play at the moment IMO is that you can just about squeeze enough sound out of a single 12" cone to match a drummer, so long as you aren't demanding anything unusual in terms of boosting the bass. The Barefaced designs along with loads of others takes advantage of this and the ultralight cab helps a lot with portability too.

If you are still reading this thread then I'd recommend you think in terms of buying a couple of 8 ohm, 1x12 cabs. a single one will do for rehearsals and small gigs and adding a second cab will double the efficiency and increase the power from your amp giving you a real boost in sound. It means a single journey for smaller gigs and a return trip for big gigs, though I  do sometimes manage two light'ish 1x12's, amp and bass as one lift if the route from the car is straightforward.

I think you should be fussed by tone though, compared to speakers amps add very little tone of their own and changing your speakers will change your tone more than changing your amp. I'd go out and try as many speakers as possible, preferably with your own amp.