1x12 bass cab to replace a 4x10

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Nancyraygun are you still in the room?

Anyway, here's the thing all other things being equal the efficiency of loudspeakers is proportional to their surface area, doubling the cone area gives the equivalent of doubling the amplifier power. There is nothing magic about modern speakers just a gradual improvement in materials and engineering which enable you to squeeze a little more sound out of a modern drive unit. The state of play at the moment IMO is that you can just about squeeze enough sound out of a single 12" cone to match a drummer, so long as you aren't demanding anything unusual in terms of boosting the bass. The Barefaced designs along with loads of others takes advantage of this and the ultralight cab helps a lot with portability too.

If you are still reading this thread then I'd recommend you think in terms of buying a couple of 8 ohm, 1x12 cabs. a single one will do for rehearsals and small gigs and adding a second cab will double the efficiency and increase the power from your amp giving you a real boost in sound. It means a single journey for smaller gigs and a return trip for big gigs, though I  do sometimes manage two light'ish 1x12's, amp and bass as one lift if the route from the car is straightforward.

I think you should be fussed by tone though, compared to speakers amps add very little tone of their own and changing your speakers will change your tone more than changing your amp. I'd go out and try as many speakers as possible, preferably with your own amp.

Phil you make some good points (as ever!).

I think what I'm hearing is that a 1x12 may not always cut it? For the record my MB AC 121 Combo with a it's 12" speaker is a 'stand alone' 500W unit and has never failed to deliver sufficient volume in any of the venues I've played so far (the bigger ones have always had on-site quality PAs which I typically DI straight into these days). But maybe it's relatively unique as most other combos require an extension speaker to be delivering their full load?

But whilst a 112 cab may not always cut it, would it be also fair to say a decent 212 or 210 should be able to give you everything you need for most occasions and you probably don't need a 410?

[Danuman]

Perhaps someone smarter than me can weigh in on some numbers, but comparing a single 12” driver to four 10” ones seems to me is comparing apples to oranges in more ways than just surface area.

I opted for a pair of efficient 12” cabs so I can safely carry all of my gear alone - because I frequently have to. The two of them combined certainly outperform many of the older big cabs in my experience.

Personally, I’d really rather not go any louder than what these cabs are capable of, but that has as much to do with tinnitus as it does with the types of music I like to play.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Danuman
Cannot write good

[stevie]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

But whilst a 112 cab may not always cut it, would it be also fair to say a decent 212 or 210 should be able to give you everything you need for most occasions and you probably don't need a 410?

I agree. Depends on the 212 or 210 (or 1x15)  though. This really is the crux of the matter - and not whether a 1x12 can go as loud as a 4x10 (which it can't).  I find that my 1x12 is loud enough for any gig I play, including small outdoor ones. But sometimes it's just nice to work with a bigger speaker, and not everyone's bothered about portability.

[Opticaleye]

Ed Friedland's Bass Player review of the Fearless F112 is very relevant to this topic (although it does have a 5" mid driver as well as the 12"). The section headed "Road Test".

https://www.bassplayer.com/gear/greenboy-audio-fearless-f112-cabinet-reviewed

My similarly configured TKS 1126 also seems louder to me than my old Eden 410XLT given enough watts and never sounds boxy either. 

[Al Krow]

36 minutes ago, stevie said:

I agree. Depends on the 212 or 210 (or 1x15)  though. This really is the crux of the matter - and not whether a 1x12 can go as loud as a 4x10 (which it can't).  I find that my 1x12 is loud enough for any gig I play, including small outdoor ones. But sometimes it's just nice to work with a bigger speaker, and not everyone's bothered about portability.

Which 1x12 are you using?

[stevie]

1 hour ago, Opticaleye said:

Ed Friedland's Bass Player review of the Fearless F112 is very relevant to this topic (although it does have a 5" mid driver as well as the 12"). The section headed "Road Test".

https://www.bassplayer.com/gear/greenboy-audio-fearless-f112-cabinet-reviewed

My similarly configured TKS 1126 also seems louder to me than my old Eden 410XLT given enough watts and never sounds boxy either. 

You make a valid point. A midrange speaker is going to make any cab subjectively louder than a 12" driver on its own or one with the usual tweeter on top. It will also have more "punch" and clarity if implemented properly. This, as I'm sure you know, is directly connected to what's called the "power response", which is the total output of the speaker at all frequencies and at all listening angles. It's an aspect of cab design that is ignored by just about everyone making bass cabs, with a few exceptions including Greenboy.

I've experimented with the 12 + midrange configuration but was never totally happy with it. I felt that a midrange speaker on its own didn't have enough highs off axis, and adding a constant directivity hf driver on top made the crossover very complex. I did complete a design with an Eminence 3012LF and a Celestion TF 0615MR self-contained midrange unit, which I could revisit and publish if anyone is interested, but I felt that a better solution was just a single crossover point with a high quality compression driver and constant directivity horn. I think Duke Lejeune is the only commercial builder to go down that route because 1) it's quite an expensive approach and 2) the costs incurred are not immediately apparent to the average cab buyer.

[stevie]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Which 1x12 are you using?

I stopped using commercial cabs years ago. I'm currently using the self-built cab I have been describing in the Cab Diary Revisited thread. It's gone through a few iterations but the design concept is basically what I outlined in my post above. The bass driver I'm using now is the new neo Faital Pro 12PR320 together with a Celestion compression driver and constant directivity horn. I've nearly finished this particular version, which has been designed specifically to be lightweight, and will be continuing the thread as soon as it's ready so that anyone who wants to can build one.

Straying a bit off topic......

Edited May 29, 2018 by stevie
incorrect case ending - if you must know!

[Al Krow]

@stevie I clearly need to check out that thread asap then. You have no plans to become the next Barefaced then?! 

[Opticaleye]

20 minutes ago, stevie said:

You make a valid point. A midrange speaker is going to make any cab subjectively louder than a 12" driver on its own or one with the usual tweeter on top. It will also have more "punch" and clarity if implemented properly. This, as I'm sure you know, is directly connected to what's called the "power response", which is the total output of the speaker at all frequencies and at all listening angles. It's an aspect of cab design that is ignored by just about everyone making bass cabs, with a few exceptions including Greenboy.

I've experimented with the 12 + midrange configuration but was never totally happy with it. I felt that a midrange speaker on its own didn't have enough highs off axis, and adding a constant directivity hf driver on top made the crossover very complex. I did complete a design with an Eminence 3012LF and a Celestion TF 0615MR self-contained midrange unit, which I could revisit and publish if anyone is interested, but I felt that a better solution was just a single crossover point with a high quality compression driver and constant directivity horn. I think Duke Lejeune is the only commercial builder to go down that route because 1) it's quite an expensive approach and 2) the costs incurred are not immediately apparent to the average cab buyer.

I have a 3 way TKS 1126 and a 2 way without tweeter. The 2 way does extend to 9khz and is enough for me. Both are excellent off axis and I don't have to angle the cab up to hear mids onstage like I do with my Markbass 121HR (luckily the Markbass is also usable in kickback mode). I get the feeling that Tommy of TKS knows his stuff.

Quilter make a 1x12 Bassliner cab that uses a 3012LF, a horn and no mid driver. I've heard clips and read reviews and it sounds good.

 

[stevie]

[Edit: in response to Al's post] No thank you. I make a very good living doing something completely different. I did design speakers for a living once, but now it's just a part-time hobby. Which is how I like it.

Edited May 29, 2018 by stevie

[stevie]

1 minute ago, Opticaleye said:

I have a 3 way TKS 1126 and a 2 way without tweeter. The 2 way does extend to 9khz and is enough for me. Both are excellent off axis and I don't have to angle the cab up to hear mids onstage like I do with my Markbass 121HR (luckily the Markbass is also usable in kickback mode). I get the feeling that Tommy of TKS knows his stuff.

Quilter make a 1x12 Bassliner cab that uses a 3012LF, a horn and no mid driver. I've heard clips and read reviews and it sounds good.

Although the midrange driver on your TKS may go up to 9kHz,  it still starts to roll off about 2kHz off axis. That is, of course, a great improvement on a 12" on its own or a 12" with a bullet tweeter, and you're right: it will allow you to hear mids on-stage much better. Not only that, but it will project the mids better into the audience. A two-way with a small midrange driver is a great solution, and one that I gigged with for a number of years. But I'd say that a two-way with a (proper) compression driver and CD horn is even better. It's also likely to be more expensive. That's what I've found works best for me anyway - so far.

[Opticaleye]

10 minutes ago, stevie said:

Although the midrange driver on your TKS may go up to 9kHz,  it still starts to roll off about 2kHz off axis. That is, of course, a great improvement on a 12" on its own or a 12" with a bullet tweeter, and you're right: it will allow you to hear mids on-stage much better. Not only that, but it will project the mids better into the audience. A two-way with a small midrange driver is a great solution, and one that I gigged with for a number of years. But I'd say that a two-way with a (proper) compression driver and CD horn is even better. It's also likely to be more expensive. That's what I've found works best for me anyway - so far.

Well I don't have much technical knowledge on the subject but the mids/highs certainly sound better off axis than the Barefaced One10's with their "usable frequency range" of up to 6khz 

My Markbass cab has  a "1" voice coil tweeter" a term that they interchange with compression driver. The highs sound good off axis and the mids sound good in the audience but using the single cab pointing at my calves onstage the mids seem missing in comparison to the TKS cabs.

[stevie]

This is why compact cabs for bass guitar are much more difficult to design than most people think. Not only do you have to get your sound to the audience (assuming no large PA), but you also have to get the sound to the player's ears when he's standing one to two metres in front of the cab. And the sound the audience hears should ideally be the same as the sound the player hears, for obvious reasons. Most players, I think, recognise the limitations of their cabs and live with them - and angling always helps the player to hear better (but not necessarily the audience).

You can more or less tell by looking at the driver configuration whether a cab can pull this trick off - and most don't come anywhere near. So you have to stack a second cab on top of your first so that you can at least hear yourself. When you do that you get cancellation between the cabs at certain frequencies, which affects what the audience hears - and so on. No wonder people like in-ears!

[Chienmortbb]

On 5/28/2018 at 12:18, Opticaleye said:

I've owned 2 Barefaced One10's and no way are they as loud together as a typical 4x10. From what I gather the Two10 is much the same as 2xOne10's as you would expect.

Something based around a Kappalite 3012LF would be the only real option such as a Fearless F112 or the TKS 1126 (I own 2 of these and they are loud given enough watts).

I'd avoid the Orange given the fact that it's Isobaric. Not many real world advantages over a single speaker and plenty of disadvantages including weight.

As I understand it the Barfaced 12s use an Eminence driver. Hving picked one up it must be a neo.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Chienmortbb

[Opticaleye]

9 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

The Gen 3 Barefaced Cabs use an OEM version of the Kappalite 3012LF. So why dismiss the Barefaced? Trust me I am not a Barfaced Fanboi. 

I didn't dismiss Barefaced. I didn't mention them as I gather that, given they shifted the frequency range of the 3012LF upwards and had no mid driver, I couldn't add any more than @dave_bass5 did in his post (as I've never tried one). In a later post I mentioned that they are probably a good option.

[Chienmortbb]

35 minutes ago, Opticaleye said:

I didn't dismiss Barefaced. I didn't mention them as I gather that, given they shifted the frequency range of the 3012LF upwards and had no mid driver, I couldn't add any more than @dave_bass5 did in his post (as I've never tried one). In a later post I mentioned that they are probably a good option.

I changed my post as I realised I was quoting hearsay. I have a great deal of time for Dave Greenboy's designs so I would not discount them, except that the cost over here is quite high. I also think TKS have the right idea as the Kappalite 3012LF is, in my opinion, not good enough on its own.

[Opticaleye]

41 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I changed my post as I realised I was quoting hearsay. I have a great deal of time for Dave Greenboy's designs so I would not discount them, except that the cost over here is quite high. I also think TKS have the right idea as the Kappalite 3012LF is, in my opinion, not good enough on its own.

Tricky Audio's base price for a F112 made in the UK is £750. That's not bad considering an Aguilar SL112,  for instance, will cost possibly more with much cheaper components.

[Al Krow]

54 minutes ago, Opticaleye said:

Tricky Audio's base price for a F112 made in the UK is £750. That's not bad considering an Aguilar SL112,  for instance, will cost possibly more with much cheaper components.

Great review of the F112 by Ed Friedland, which I guess is already well known to those who are Fearless fans.

But does anyone have the specs of this cab in terms of power handling, dB output, frequency response etc? How does it stack spec wise against at BF BB2?

[stevie]

It really is impossible to say for sure. You need to try them. Based on the drivers used, I'd say that the F112 has the edge as far as power handling and LF extension is concerned. The bass driver used in the F112 is slightly less sensitive than the one used in the Barefaced cab, but it goes lower in a slightly larger box. The midrange driver is a huge plus, which adds to the power handling and improves subjective sensitivity and accuracy. The F112 offers more in terms of hardware and is therefore better value for money, but at the end of the day, it's down to how well the designs have been implemented. It is also worth pointing out that the F112 is built from 12mm birch ply and the Barefaced from 9mm poplar ply.

Edited May 29, 2018 by stevie

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, stevie said:

It really is impossible to say for sure. You need to try them. Based on the drivers used, I'd say that the F112 has the edge as far as power handling and LF extension is concerned. The bass driver used in the F112 is slightly less sensitive than the one used in the Barefaced cab, but it goes lower in a slightly larger box. The midrange driver is a huge plus, which adds to the power handling and improves subjective sensitivity and accuracy. The F112 offers more in terms of hardware and is therefore better value for money, but at the end of the day, it's down to how well the designs have been implemented. It is also worth pointing out that the F112 is built from 12mm birch ply and the Barefaced from 9mm poplar ply.

Thanks very much for that. Do you (or anyone else) perchance have the specs for the F112 (or have these not been released)?

[TPJ]

11 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks very much for that. Do you (or anyone else) perchance have the specs for the F112 (or have these not been released)?

Because the Fearless is a commercial cab, I don't think Greenboy let the specs go pubic. The Fearful range, which is the DIY version, has the specs available. Google is your friend on that.

I have two F112s and they are great cabs. I don't think there is too much difference between them and the BB2, just personal preference. I pretty much always run just one cab as I've never really needed more, but having two is a wonderful luxury when they both get used :). Tricky Audio build very nice cabs with lots of options and are great with after sales help. As mentioned above, the TKS 1126 is very similar to the F112.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, TPJ said:

Because the Fearless is a commercial cab, I don't think Greenboy let the specs go pubic. The Fearful range, which is the DIY version, has the specs available. Google is your friend on that.

I have two F112s and they are great cabs. I don't think there is too much difference between them and the BB2, just personal preference. I pretty much always run just one cab as I've never really needed more, but having two is a wonderful luxury when they both get used :). Tricky Audio build very nice cabs with lots of options and are great with after sales help. As mentioned above, the TKS 1126 is very similar to the F112.

http://trickyaudio.wixsite.com/trickyaudio/products

Next to nothing in terms of information on the cabs, their power handling etc.

So we were giving Alex and BF a hard time earlier in this thread 'cos he hadn't provided an accurate RMS / AES number for their range; but they look positively angelic compared to the Greenboy / Fearful boys in terms of being helpful to potential customers!

Edited May 30, 2018 by Al Krow

[Opticaleye]

28 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

http://trickyaudio.wixsite.com/trickyaudio/products

Next to nothing in terms of information on the cabs, their power handling etc.

So we were giving Alex and BF a hard time a hard time in this thread 'cos he hadn't provided an accurate RMS / AES number for their range; but they look positively angelic compared to the Greenboy / Fearful boys in terms of being helpful to potential customers!

The specs for the TKS 1126 are available online. http://www.tks.se/

The F112 specs will be similar enough to get a general idea (except the high frequency range will be around 20khz due to the tweeter). Specs won't tell you too much given, for instance, that the stated power handling is quoted at 450watts and Ed Friedland in the review is using a 2kw amp. I'm using 450/500w @8ohms into my TKS but a lot of Fearless users are using a lot more.

 

The more important factors in tone will be the crossover points and the sound of the mid driver used. As with the Barefaced cabs there is a lot of user chat/reviews out there regarding the Fearless line. 

The Greenboy website states this about the DIY fEARFUL cab

• A 12/6 is almost as loud as most 210 cabs with one watt input, and more extended in response. When driven fully it can get nearly as loud as a good 410. The fEARFUL will sound fuller while maintaining clarity, and will disperse wider. It will not lose its punch when driven hard.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Opticaleye

[Al Krow]

40 minutes ago, Opticaleye said:

The specs for the TKS 1126 are available online. http://www.tks.se/

The F112 specs will be similar enough to get a general idea (except the high frequency range will be around 20khz due to the tweeter). Specs won't tell you too much given, for instance, that the stated power handling is quoted at 450watts and Ed Friedland in the review is using a 2kw amp. I'm using 450/500w @8ohms into my TKS but a lot of Fearless users are using a lot more.

 

The more important factors in tone will be the crossover points and the sound of the mid driver used. As with the Barefaced cabs there is a lot of user chat/reviews out there regarding the Fearless line. 

The Greenboy website states this about the DIY fEARFUL cab

• A 12/6 is almost as loud as most 210 cabs with one watt input, and more extended in response. When driven fully it can get nearly as loud as a good 410. The fEARFUL will sound fuller while maintaining clarity, and will disperse wider. It will not lose its punch when driven hard.

Thanks and that's helpful.

But it's very unfair of us earlier in the thread to be giving Alex a hard time for 'less than complete' information about his cabs on the BF website. Need to be applying the same yardstick across the board, methinks?

[Al Krow]

BB2 vs VK210 LNT

I emailed Alex to get a bit more detail on the BB2 and whether a 4 ohm version would be available. He asked me a bit about my current set up, which is a DG M900 that delivers 900W into 4 ohms and 450W into 8 ohms into a 1200W AES VK210 LNT, and he came back with the following really helpful comments:

Hi Al,

I'm pretty certain the drivers in your 210LNT are Faital 10FH520 and although they're each rated at 600W thermally, 1200W total, they won't even handle a third of that in the lows before they distort, as their Xmax just isn't long enough. They're still very good drivers compared to most 10" bass guitar drivers - they won't move as much air as our 10CR ones but they're not that far behind, and the pair of them will still move more air than something like an SWR 410 despite being two drivers down. So you're not using all the power from the M900, and are unlikely to notice a difference in loudness between an 8 ohm and a 4 ohm cab.  

It isn't actually possible to make a 4 ohm version of our 12XN driver - it's a very finely balanced design, right on the edge of what's possible, and decreasing the nominal impedance would mean either giving up sensitivity (so the extra power would get more than used up compensating for that) or giving up excursion (so you couldn't handle as much power). 

In terms of the loudness difference between 4 ohms and 8 ohms, once you figure in power compression and amp current delivery limitations, you're probably looking at about 1dB at most. And in return for that, you lose the ability to add a second cab for very LOUD or outdoor gigs. If we could make a 4 ohm 12XN driver, we'd probably succumb to selling a 4 ohm version, solely for marketing reasons so I wouldn't have to write emails like this! But it would benefit our sales figures more than it would benefit our customers! ;-)

 We haven't run an AES test on the 12XN but it's about 600W thermal with the excursion to use that effectively. It's a bigger voice coil than on those Faital 10"s. Only ever had three blown, and its taken 1000W+ heavyweight amps (not micro-amps like your Darkglass) and FX pedals being used.

Best regards, Alex

Sounds to me that the BB2 is well worth keeping on our radar as a one of the better and very portable 1x12 options. It's not going to be a 4x10. But frankly does anyone really need a 4x10 given that most larger venues will have their own (quality) PAs?