1x12 bass cab to replace a 4x10

[Opticaleye]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks and that's helpful.

But it's very unfair of us earlier in the thread to be giving Alex a hard time for 'less than complete' information about his cabs on the BF website. Need to be applying the same yardstick across the board, methinks?

I don't want to be critical of Alex's perfectly fine products but I find the website tone to be annoying marketspeak and the self aggrandising offends my sensibilities a little. My problem though and I don't expect Barefaced will change their business model if it's successful.

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Sounds to me that the BB2 is well worth keeping on our radar as a one of the better and very portable 1x12 options. It's not going to be a 4x10. But frankly does anyone really need a 4x10 given that most larger venues will have their own (quality) PAs?

 

Not arguing, but pointing out that in the 13 years of constant gigging with my covers band i never once played a venue that provided any back line. In fact i never have. Even as far as a provided PA goes its been less than a hand full, so its always been up to me to get my sound out in to the room. Ive never owned a 410 due to space restrictions, but i have always wanted to as i love using them at rehearsals.

Agree about the portability though, i could lift mine up with just two fingers, and out of all the cabs ive owned, this one seemed to be the perfect size for me.

2 hours ago, Opticaleye said:

I don't want to be critical of Alex's perfectly fine products but I find the website tone to be annoying marketspeak and the self aggrandising offends my sensibilities a little. My problem though and I don't expect Barefaced will change their business model if it's successful.

Pretty much my feeling. They are good cabs, ive never said otherwise, but having owned two i felt they never lived up to the description on the website as far as out preforming other cabs. They are just another boutique choice IME and they definitely have a certain tone to them, no matter how much the figures say they are flat or neutral.

Edited May 30, 2018 by dave_bass5
typo

[la bam]

Ok, heres my real world experience of using x3 types of set up this year.

First Set Up - markbass 500w evo head & barefaced super compact gen 3 (giving 8ohms - so approx 300w).

gig types: - a couple of large functions - 200 people + and a few smaller gigs - all with pa support.

opinion: firstly the portability is phenomenal. believe the hype. you can easily carry in one hand. foot print is small and cab can go anywhere.

i was able to get some gorgeous tones out of it, as well as some really nice gigging tones and volumes.

Only occasionally on some songs did the volume become an issue and i had to really dig in to hear.

I was convinced this was my set up for ever. the amp was running fairly full on, with a little headroom, but i didnt really need much more volume.

 

Second Set Up - markbass evo head and 6ohm markbass 610 - so approx 400w.

gig type: my current set up - did beer festival in fairly large social club - around 300 guests.

i picked his up on a whim at a bargain price as our band was starting to do much bigger gigs, and i always fancied a 610.

So .... i was 100% happy with the super compact, this 610 was just going to give a bit more volume.... WRONG!! Once i hit the first note i just sounded SO SO warm, full, powerful and suddenly lifted all the band. Volume nowhere near half, and everyone could hear it crystal clear without it being loud.

I think the thing is, the super compact is perfectly acceptable, brilliantly portable and loud for what it is. However, the 610 is just back to what bass is about - full, warm, powerful, punchy and never needing to be over loud. 

Suddenly the super compact had been brought back down to earth. Fair enough - its not meant as a competitor to a 610 but the difference is there. Think of a soloist compared to a choir - just so much more full and nice.

 

Third Set Up - ashdown evo 900w head and ashdown 8x10 4ohm cab.

gig type: one off large out door festival. large stage. large pa support. rig supplied by the festival.

i used this at the weekend - and i swear its a wonder the whole band didnt get blown 200 yards into the crowd. Absolute ridiculous power. Ridiculous. i think it was on half volume and i had to turn my bass right down and still all you could hear was bass. Not a particularly nice sound, but thats more to do with we only had a 10 minute window to get set up. I cant even compare how the super compact would have been in comparison. Probably a whisper to a scream.

 

In conclusion, it doesnt take a genius to see that thicker, better constructed wooden cabs, with more speakers have a phenomenal effect on everything - volume, tone and presence. However they also are x amount heavier, bulkier and more awkward.

In my opinion, can a super compact compete with an decent 4x10? - only just, and thats if the band dont need you playing full out. If your a smallish pub band the super compact is the way to go, absolutely. /itll be great for you. Just as loud as a 4x0 in a small space, nice sound and SO easy to move around. However, in a medium sized gig you can cope with a super compact, but dont expect it to have great presence or much headroom, regardless of whether you are using pa support or not. It becomes more of a monitor. In a large venue its 4x10 upwards all the way.

[Kevin Dean]

If we all had road crew I think most of use would have a 8 x10 anything else is a compromise .

[stevie]

19 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But it's very unfair of us earlier in the thread to be giving Alex a hard time for 'less than complete' information about his cabs on the BF website. Need to be applying the same yardstick across the board, methinks?

Greenboy provide more information than most about their cabs because they are not coy about the drivers they fit. When you know what drivers are in a cab, you don't need much technical knowledge to get a good idea of the performance potential of the design. While some manufacturers, like Mesa Boogie, provide accurate specs and a reasonable amount of detail, not many do, and even Mesa don't provide the kind of information you would expect from a serious PA cab manufacturer. There's a lot of specmanship going on - as is evidenced by this thread. 

[Kevin Dean]

On 5/30/2018 at 17:29, la bam said:

In conclusion, it doesnt take a genius to see that thicker, better constructed wooden cabs, with more speakers have a phenomenal effect on everything - volume, tone and presence. However they also are x amount heavier, bulkier and more awkward.

I've been experimenting & I'm not sure thicker wood makes a difference , Construction ,Number of Speakers , ceramic or neo  definitely  do.  Personally  I prefer the ceramic speakers & I'm finding it's the design of the cab that makes the biggest difference to the weight . 

[stevie]

On 30/05/2018 at 13:06, Al Krow said:

Sounds to me that the BB2 is well worth keeping on our radar as a one of the better and very portable 1x12 options.

Sounds to me like a manufacturer making wild claims about his products and misusing statistics to slag off the competition. Not unlike the website actually.

[paddy109]

I used a TB500 and Super Midget Gen 3 for my first gig last night - alternative rock band, bass, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, loud drummer, vocals.

My set up appeared to have room to spare and complements where made by the bassist from the band we sharing the bill with.

[dawind99]

On 29/05/2018 at 12:12, Chienmortbb said:

I changed my post as I realised I was quoting hearsay. I have a great deal of time for Dave Greenboy's designs so I would not discount them, except that the cost over here is quite high. I also think TKS have the right idea as the Kappalite 3012LF is, in my opinion, not good enough on its own.

The Kappalite 3012LF is a wonderful FOH/PA driver.  It is not IMHO suited for bass guitar.  If you choose to load a cabinet with an additional driver of different size to enhance/add midrange you are venturing in to a place of diminishing returns.  Choose your driver carefully for it's application and voicing with sufficient bandwidth (and there are many available) and tune your cabinet carefully (if you are porting)  If you want more "woof" use a rectangular vent,  more hifi..a duct.  If you choose to mix drivers you must consider sensitivity.  If you 15 or 12 is 98db your 5,6, or 8 should be the same.  Then you need to either electronically align (as EAW,  JBL and Meyers began doing in the late 70s early 80s when they were building boxes with mixed drivers) or mechanically align them in your cabinet with the backs of the voice coils aligned.  In the 2000s we're back to where we were in the 60s and rightfully so.  Line Array.  Again,  just this old musician/engineer/designer/builder's humble opinion.

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, dawind99 said:

The Kappalite 3012LF is a wonderful FOH/PA driver.  It is not IMHO suited for bass guitar.  If you choose to load a cabinet with an additional driver of different size to enhance/add midrange you are venturing in to a place of diminishing returns.  Choose your driver carefully for it's application and voicing with sufficient bandwidth (and there are many available) and tune your cabinet carefully (if you are porting)  If you want more "woof" use a rectangular vent,  more hifi..a duct.  If you choose to mix drivers you must consider sensitivity.  If you 15 or 12 is 98db your 5,6, or 8 should be the same.  Then you need to either electronically align (as EAW,  JBL and Meyers began doing in the late 70s early 80s when they were building boxes with mixed drivers) or mechanically align them in your cabinet with the backs of the voice coils aligned.  In the 2000s we're back to where we were in the 60s and rightfully so.  Line Array.  Again,  just this old musician/engineer/designer/builder's humble opinion.

This is very interesting, thanks. I'd be really interested to get your take on comments that have been made almost "as gospel" in the bumper FRFR thread that an RCF 735A can easily go head to head with a decent bass cab for bass guitars. Do you agree with them? 

[Phil Starr]

14 hours ago, dawind99 said:

The Kappalite 3012LF is a wonderful FOH/PA driver.  It is not IMHO suited for bass guitar.  If you choose to load a cabinet with an additional driver of different size to enhance/add midrange you are venturing in to a place of diminishing returns.  Choose your driver carefully for it's application and voicing with sufficient bandwidth (and there are many available) and tune your cabinet carefully (if you are porting)  If you want more "woof" use a rectangular vent,  more hifi..a duct.  If you choose to mix drivers you must consider sensitivity.  If you 15 or 12 is 98db your 5,6, or 8 should be the same.  Then you need to either electronically align (as EAW,  JBL and Meyers began doing in the late 70s early 80s when they were building boxes with mixed drivers) or mechanically align them in your cabinet with the backs of the voice coils aligned.  In the 2000s we're back to where we were in the 60s and rightfully so.  Line Array.  Again,  just this old musician/engineer/designer/builder's humble opinion.

Without wanting to start a major derail of this thread there are a lot of assertions here that are at least debatable. One thing however stick out as just being wrong, that rectangular vents give more "woof" and ducts are more hi-fi. Whilst the shape of the ports will change the port resonances and changing that shape will  also alter the point at which turbulence sets in the idea that different shaped ports of the same length and cross sectional area will have vastly different sounds isn't something with any evidence or mathematical proof that I've seen. 

I'm interested in what you mean by Line Array. The first of what we currently consider line array systems appeared in PA systems in the 1990's. A series of identical cabs with the mid and high frequency drivers vertically aligned to control dispersion. The idea of 'line source' has been around a lot longer, single cabs with vertically aligned drivers. The original paper on that was published in the 1950's but the phenomenon was known a long time before that and I remember churches with line source speakers fitted probably back before WW2 plus designs published in old books before Olsen's paper. I can't think of anyone using Line Array for bass, though the Genzler Bass Array cabs look interesting.

[Chienmortbb]

There are many assetions on here as Phil says. The one I woud like to hammer is that any 4x10" can out perform any 1x12". It depends on the drivers, the cabinet design and the personal preference of the player.

I should also point out that Dave Greenboy originally designed his cabs to be bi-amped*, as he felt that this was a better option than using large power crossovers. In that case using multiple drivers is no compromise. In fact the acoustic power (max SPL) output is greater, less heat is generated, less power is lost in both crossovers and drivers.

*Bi amping uses small signal, solid state crossovers.

[Kevin Dean]

On 30/05/2018 at 17:29, la bam said:

Ok, heres my real world experience of using x3 types of set up this year.

First Set Up - markbass 500w evo head & barefaced super compact gen 3 (giving 8ohms - so approx 300w).

gig types: - a couple of large functions - 200 people + and a few smaller gigs - all with pa support.

opinion: firstly the portability is phenomenal. believe the hype. you can easily carry in one hand. foot print is small and cab can go anywhere.

i was able to get some gorgeous tones out of it, as well as some really nice gigging tones and volumes.

Only occasionally on some songs did the volume become an issue and i had to really dig in to hear.

I was convinced this was my set up for ever. the amp was running fairly full on, with a little headroom, but i didnt really need much more volume.

I had this set up , But when I changed the Head to a Ahsdown ABM1000  or ABM 400  (both digital heads)  it just seemed to moved a lot more air a lot bigger sound , I never had to test the volume in similar size venues .

[mcnach]

I see the Barefaced Two10 being suggested...

I disagree. I have two of them, and I like them a lot, they sound great and they have nice weight to them, portable etc... but they don't strike me as particularly loud compared to other similar 210s and no way I'd compare it to the old Peavey TX410 I used to have with regards to loudness.

I love the Two10... but it's not extraordinarily loud.

 

The BB2 would be a better bet, volume wise. It's a loud 112 cab. Lots of bottom end too. But it's not magic. I never found that I could do with a single speaker cab, when I had a BB2, I had two of them. Unless you just play small rooms or only need it onstage for monitoring.

[mcnach]

On 28/05/2018 at 13:02, Al Krow said:

It's a bit of a shame that the BB2 is only available as an 8ohm cab. If Alex made this available as a 4ohm, its power handling and output, excellent articulation, broad usable frequency response range and wonderful portability would make it a very compelling proposition.

I've just emailed the BF team to see if a 4 ohm BB2 might be a possibility. (That would allow me to make use of the full power output from my amp, which is 450W at 8ohm but 900W at 4ohm). But I'm guessing that I am not the first person who has requested this and am presuming it is therefore not going to be an option?

 

These days power is cheap... a more powerful amplifier would be able to push the cab enough.

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, mcnach said:

I see the Barefaced Two10 being suggested...

I disagree. I have two of them, and I like them a lot, they sound great and they have nice weight to them, portable etc... but they don't strike me as particularly loud compared to other similar 210s and no way I'd compare it to the old Peavey TX410 I used to have with regards to loudness.

I love the Two10... but it's not extraordinarily loud.

The BB2 would be a better bet, volume wise. It's a loud 112 cab. Lots of bottom end too. But it's not magic. I never found that I could do with a single speaker cab, when I had a BB2, I had two of them. Unless you just play small rooms or only need it onstage for monitoring.

That makes good sense.

But it seems to me if I'm looking for a 'one cab' solution from what you and other folk are saying, I'm going to be hard pressed to find something that is a step up from my second hand VK 210LNT (which can handle 1200W at 4 ohms) other than a 212 cab or 2 x BB2 and very little point in doing that in terms of either cost or alternatively weight (or potentially both!). So I think it's time for me to stop looking for greener grass and start getting on with making the most of the pretty decent gear I already have!  

[mcnach]

On 29/05/2018 at 13:04, Opticaleye said:

I have a 3 way TKS 1126 and a 2 way without tweeter. The 2 way does extend to 9khz and is enough for me. Both are excellent off axis and I don't have to angle the cab up to hear mids onstage like I do with my Markbass 121HR (luckily the Markbass is also usable in kickback mode). I get the feeling that Tommy of TKS knows his stuff.

Quilter make a 1x12 Bassliner cab that uses a 3012LF, a horn and no mid driver. I've heard clips and read reviews and it sounds good.

 

 

Those TKS 1126 are beasts. I remember playing in a bar in Glasgow where I provided the amplification for both my band and the one supporting us, a reggae band, no PA support. They sounded fantastic. It was very interesting to listen during soundcheck as their bass player had to use my bass (he damaged it while arriving at the venue... fell down the stairs and broke a tuner), so technique differences aside I had a good listen at how my equipment could sound like.

I ordered the 1126 with a tweeter, but it was completely unnecessary for me too...

I compared the two 1126 to a pair of BB2, and volume wise I don't think there was much between them. The 1126 had a tendency to sound a bit 'bigger' than the BB2, whereas I like a fat but tight bottom end, so I kept the BB2 instead. But the slight colouration of the 1126 was more pleasing to my ears (the BB2 is more 'flat' so you can still get there).

[mcnach]

18 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

That makes good sense.

But it seems to me if I'm looking for a 'one cab' solution from what you and other folk are saying, I'm going to be hard pressed to find something that is a step up from my second hand VK 210LNT (which can handle 1200W at 4 ohms) other than a 212 cab or 2 x BB2 and very little point in doing that in terms of either cost or alternatively weight (or potentially both!). So I think it's time for me to stop looking for greener grass and start getting on with making the most of the pretty decent gear I already have!  

 

Indeed. That VK is a pretty damn good cab.

Personally, I see the attraction a single cab solution can have, but then we also want it tiny and light and powerful and... and we're going to be compromising somewhere. The truth is that these days there's a wide selection of reasonably small, powerful and light cabs. Keyword being "reasonably". I stopped trying to get 'one cab' and personally I find two cabs is not a hardship. One cab works as stage monitor, and two cabs work for the kind of gigs I do without PA support... Would I like them to be smaller? Lighter? Sure, but it's not like we're dealing with 50Kg 410 cabs... at some point I've got to stop obsessing and just play Once the basic portability issues are met, sound quality is what matters. That's why I like a pair of BF Two10 cabs these days. I really do not find them extraordinarily loud, but pretty normal volume-wise for a modern 210 cab. But I love their sound and weight. They do what I need them to do. I'm a fan of them... even if one the the handles seems to be loosening let's see how it goes.

[gjones]

On 30/05/2018 at 17:29, la bam said:

Ok, heres my real world experience of using x3 types of set up this year.

First Set Up - markbass 500w evo head & barefaced super compact gen 3 (giving 8ohms - so approx 300w).

gig types: - a couple of large functions - 200 people + and a few smaller gigs - all with pa support.

opinion: firstly the portability is phenomenal. believe the hype. you can easily carry in one hand. foot print is small and cab can go anywhere.

i was able to get some gorgeous tones out of it, as well as some really nice gigging tones and volumes.

Only occasionally on some songs did the volume become an issue and i had to really dig in to hear.

I was convinced this was my set up for ever. the amp was running fairly full on, with a little headroom, but i didnt really need much more volume.

 

 

 

 

I have a GK MB500, which I use with a Gen 1 Barefaced Compact. I also own an Ashdown MiBass 500. The GK MB500 is much, much louder than the Ashdown head, through the same cab. Which goes to show that some 500 watt amps are quieter than others, and  the lack of decibels may be more to do with your Markbass head's lack of ooomf, than the Barefaced Super Compact's limitations.

Last week I took delivery of a new Super Compact. I look forward to seeing how loud it will be, compared to my old Compact, with the GK MB500 through it.

I need it to compete with an enthusiastic drummer and a guitarist with a Marshall stack.

Edited June 11, 2018 by gjones

[itsmedunc]

Did plenty of gigs with a TB500 matched with a BF Midget and a 1st Gen Compact. Not a one cab solution but is light, small footprint (the midget sits perfectly on it's side on the Compact). The pair give good options for the TB, my favourite setup for sound and portability really. I used just the Midget for rehearsals and  both for gigs. After a while I found I only needed the Compact for gigging and a few times I only took the Midget. Most gigs were with PA support. I'd have no reservations using the 3 combined without PA support though (within reason).

I don't think any 12" can 'replace'  a 4x10 but when you have constraints, you have to concede there's a trade off and make the best choice for your needs.

[MarshallBTB]

I've got two One10 cabs, and they're ok, but used in a live band setting they don't really cut it for medium / large gigs. 

When one of the One10's started sounding horrible I had to source another amp for a gig the next day. Picked up a Trace Elliot 2x10 combo and 15 cab and it blew me away. Yes it's bigger and heavier but well worth it for that weighty sound. 

I've finally got the One10 fixed, and I think I'm going to keep them for a bit as they are super convenient for a couple of little gigs I've got coming up, but the trace is staying for the bigger stuff. 

The barefaced customer service though, not so good in my experience. 

[Tim1]

Just have to say, in response to the Barefaced naysayers on this thread, that my experience with the Barefaced tens runs contrary to the reservations that are expressed here. I am in New Zealand, yet the communication and customer service from Alex has been superb. I have two One 10s and a Four 10 which I combine with anything from a Mesa Subway 800+ to Orange AD200, Fender Super Bassman, Ampeg V4.....so I have a reasonable experience with these speakers. I also own Bergantino, Fender, Ampeg etc cabs for comparison. I do not want to get into a which is best scenario as that has been done to death, but IME and combined with decent amplification the Barefaced 10s far exceed others in volume and the type of tone that I enjoy. Yes, they are coloured but they are designed to be that way and it suits me. They go very loud without farting out and sit nicely in the mix. So light....

Anyway, it does boil down to opinion and we are all entitled to one, but I was surprised to read some of the comments here so looking to balance them from my own experience over 40 plus years of playing.