NancyJohnson Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 11 hours ago, Bluewine said: Ever lose an outstanding drummer? Very hard to replace. Blue I've been through many drummers in my time, good ones, bad ones, lovely guys and some that have been complete asshats. I'd say the only one I miss playing with is the last one (but don't tell him that); he was a fantastic player and in the main was fun to be round although he had dark moments as he had some personal poop going down. That said, right now the new band are recording using midi-drums and loops; flexible and way more complex patterns. I'm sure we'll add a drummer at some stage, but right now we're just writing and recording. No need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewine Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said: I've been through many drummers in my time, good ones, bad ones, lovely guys and some that have been complete asshats. I'd say the only one I miss playing with is the last one (but don't tell him that); he was a fantastic player and in the main was fun to be round although he had dark moments as he had some personal poop going down. That said, right now the new band are recording using midi-drums and loops; flexible and way more complex patterns. I'm sure we'll add a drummer at some stage, but right now we're just writing and recording. No need. I'm not big on recording, we just finished the bands 3rd CD. I didn't have much to do with it. My point, I prefer electronic drums for recording. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Bluewine said: I'm not big on recording, we just finished the bands 3rd CD. I didn't have much to do with it. My point, I prefer electronic drums for recording. Blue Are you not the bassist the band uses for recording then? I am considering learning to use a decent drum machine myself. My TR606 is a faff to use and with it being analogue, it doesn't save files. To me as a bassist it is really only useful as a metronome. If I was yearning to become a percussionist I'd put effort into getting more out of it it but I ain't so I don't. If I did arrangements for my band's set with a drum machine I'd do so with a mind to put a live drummer in at some point and make it sound better for doing so. The knowledge of how to create playable drum patterns is lacking somewhat at this stage so I'd need a drummer to learn from. I can't seem to reconcile the two ideas though. The 22nd catch has tripped me up there. A real drummer has got to sound better than a drum machine, am I right? (Puts a hard hat on for safety) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said: ...A real drummer has got to sound better than a drum machine, am I right?... Define 'better'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 29 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said: A real drummer has got to sound better than a drum machine, am I right? (Puts a hard hat on for safety) debatable, depends on the drummer I suppose, but what is not debatable is the fact that a drum machine is a lot less trouble, what's the joke, something about only having to punch it in once? 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) Used to have a guitarist in the band who was a really good player, great bloke, got us gigs, put his money into PA and stuff but the downside was that he was always TOO EFFING LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!! He'd always say 'It has to be that loud or I can't get my sound' and there was no compromise. Since he's left I don't think the band is better but the overall experience has improved immensely. Edited June 14, 2018 by Japhet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, SpondonBassed said: A real drummer has got to sound better than a drum machine, am I right? (Puts a hard hat on for safety) If we're talking sound, then a real drummer will sound better than a machine. There's other alternatives to machines though. This is my current squeeze, live loops: https://soundcloud.com/user-331350717/spookwaffe Edited June 14, 2018 by NancyJohnson Posted before finishing... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Dad3353 said: Define 'better'. Er... less worser? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 On 11/06/2018 at 14:25, Arrowsmith said: Just wondered if anyone had experienced something similar? Yes, the band are doing really well after I left 😂🤣😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 hours ago, SpondonBassed said: ...A real drummer has got to sound better than a drum machine, am I right?... We're a bit off the original topic, but there's a whole other topic waiting to be posted on the subject of drum machines 'n all. As starters, though, I'll assume that we're only going to be considering, as 'real' drummers, those with at least a modicum of competence, with at least half-decent kit..? As for drum machines, we'll include 'soft' machines, such as Vst plug-ins, not just stand-alone hardware. All of these have their advantages and drawbacks; the list could become very long... Why a human drummer..? He (or she, of course, but I'll stick to the 'he'; it's a bit more friendly that 'it'...) is able to bring his own savoir-faire to the party, and come up with maybe a better (read 'more suitable', or 'original', or'more technical' etc...) drum line than someone using a drum machine. He's also able to play with suitable dynamic for the piece, accenting or holding back, listening to the singer, for instance, or picking up on the play of the other instruments. Timing could be better, too; it's not always best to be 'metronomic' (although it can be...); a human touch induces the famous 'swing' that makes such a difference, especially when being sympathetic to the push-pull of the rest of the band, and the needs of the composition. He'll be able to make rapid changes to the sound of the drums, by means of tuning, and/or damping, choice of sticks, brushes, hot-rods, mallets... What about drum machines, then..? No good..? Yes; excellent, in fact, but quite different skills needed for getting a 'better' result. One enormous advantage over an acoustic kit is the ease in which one may swap the entire kit, or merely some elements, to change to whole timbre of the session. A 'metal ' kit, a cabaret jazz kit, three rack toms or none at all, timpani, steel drums... Again, the list becomes very long. Much less expensive, with no logistics involved in storage or carting stuff around. Metronomic..? Pretty much perfect, of course, but 'humanisation' is usually possible, although the technology used for such is not up to the ear of a 'real' drummer, it's often enough to prevent the 'machine gun' effect and maybe well be sufficient. A major benefit, of course, is 'wear and tear', by which I mean the lassitude that most drummers would feel if the same piece was to be repeated persistently, either in the rehearsal stage, or even, in extreme cases, throughout each song of an album... A drum machine will not tire, and will 'remember' each programmed pattern, day after day, even when changing the batteries..! Once the initial investment 'swallowed', a drum machine may be less expensive 'by the hour' than a 'live' drummer, too. I could go on (and will, if asked politely enough...); hoping this gives some food for thought, and maybe provoke more responses from others... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangotango Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) A while back, my 4 piece jazz(-ish) group lost the original sax player. Well I say lost, he is still with the band as far as I know, 'cos he's never told me that he's gone! Why? Well, I gave him a bit of a hard time after he refused to assist with helping with group tasks like carrying in the PA, helping other people to pack up after a gig, etc. Bit too much of a prima donna on that front - "I didn't bring it so I don't see why I have to carry it. We replaced him with a keyboard player who didn't really work out to anyone's satisfaction. The end result of that was that we got in another saxophonist and things got better because she was in tune with everyone else personality-wise as well as being a good player, definitely better than the first guy. Except then the drummer started being ill all of the time (but was still doing deps with other people!); however, the new saxophonist knew a drummer with whom she used to work and after one practice, all of us wanted the new guy in the band. So then I had to let the other drummer go, but he wasn't bothered - nowhere near as much as I was. And now, we have a 4 piece band that's on the same page musically and personally and it's absolutely the best incarnation ever of this quartet; and we're starting to see some decent frequency of gigs and some success. And I love it. Edited June 14, 2018 by mangotango 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewine Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 7 hours ago, SpondonBassed said: Are you not the bassist the band uses for recording then? I play bass on all the tracks, but I had no say in song selection or production.Which is strange because they gave me production credit. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewine Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 8 hours ago, SpondonBassed said: A real drummer has got to sound better than a drum machine, am I right? (Puts a hard hat on for safety) Depends , I guess. I've heard pro rock recordings where I would have sworn it was a real drummer, it wasn't it was programed electronic drums. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Depends who leaves. On the drummer issue...if the band drummer cant come up with better drum parts than a programmer, you need another drummer. What about getting a bass machine instead of you, would you like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewine Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, mikel said: Depends who leaves. On the drummer issue...if the band drummer cant come up with better drum parts than a programmer, you need another drummer. What about getting a bass machine instead of you, would you like that? I'm all for real drummers in principle, but there are reasons why electronic drums might be a better recording option. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewine Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, mikel said: What about getting a bass machine instead of you, would you like that? Loads of pro recordings where the bass lines are played on keys. In some cases it's the better option. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 And who tells us its a better option? If a band is doing a recording then I want to hear the band. If the studio finds it easier, for them, to substitute the instruments, its time to find another studio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 A few years ago I was in a band run jointly by the singer and drummer. The drummer was/is a pretty rated player. Unfortunately his talent comes with some "attitude issues". During my time with the band he regularly depped out the gig. The whole feeling of the band instantly improved when he was off playing elsewhere, only to slump to the previous level when he returned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyTravis Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 My longest tenure in a band was 7/8 years. They did well for a short while after I left, they were already on the up with me on board (6 music playlist regulars etc). The guy who took my place was an affable chap and was a fair player. I left because of family and life commitments (as well as 4 hour rehearsals above a pub being detrimental to health and wallet). They regurgitated old material we’d rejected for the first album and it felt like they’d settled. The second album was re-recorded twice before I left and it all got a bit stale. Eventually they released an E.P. And it just lacked something. Most of the other bands I’ve left have flopped soon after - I left them because I was sick of organising them. Sort of proved my point. A band I set up and left turn a gig out once in a blue moon and the set list hasn’t changed, their new bassist “ain’t no Trav” - says the drummer. The last band I set up and left now play in restaurants with one of the guitarists on bass. I preferred Metallica with newsted, although I loved Cliff Burton. And unfortunately for RT the band haven’t done anything worth listening to since he joined (in my opinion). in short...the answer to the OP is “sometimes they get better. Sometimes they get worse” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewine Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 5 hours ago, mikel said: And who tells us its a better option? If a band is doing a recording then I want to hear the band. If the studio finds it easier, for them, to substitute the instruments, its time to find another studio. It might be a producer or even other band members that decide it's a better option. Especially for bands that might have a weak drummer or weak bass player. You might say than get a better drummer or bass player. That might not be an option. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Bluewine said: It might be a producer or even other band members that decide it's a better option. Especially for bands that might have a weak drummer or weak bass player. You might say than get a better drummer or bass player. That might not be an option. Blue If a band becomes "hot property" for the music industry's machinery, production values come into play. As I understand it, you can have musicians who are only good in live situations with an audience egging them on. Others find studio work is their forte. Although bands do both for the most part, it is not uncommon for substitutions to be made in order to guarantee sales. This is usually done after consultation with experienced marketing organisations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymondo Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 A friend of a friend ( I have actually met him and spent time having a beer with him...it's not made up!) , Played drums with Jason mraz. Jason himself insisted that he wanted him to be his drummer, he made Warnerbrothers pay for him to get an "excellence in his field" visa so that he could move to America to be in the band. He toured the world, supported The Stones in Rio etc etc BUT The label insisted that a session drummer recorded the albums,even though he "wrote" the drum parts during the writing process of the songs. Eventually he quit the band because the management were inflexible on this point. Jason hasn't had a hit since over here ...coincidence??? 😉😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntohang Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Raymondo said: A friend of a friend ( I have actually met him and spent time having a beer with him...it's not made up!) , Played drums with Jason mraz. Jason himself insisted that he wanted him to be his drummer, he made Warnerbrothers pay for him to get an "excellence in his field" visa so that he could move to America to be in the band. He toured the world, supported The Stones in Rio etc etc BUT The label insisted that a session drummer recorded the albums,even though he "wrote" the drum parts during the writing process of the songs. Eventually he quit the band because the management were inflexible on this point. Jason hasn't had a hit since over here ...coincidence??? 😉😁 Major labels are just another level of flipery. I'm currently doing a spot of playing with a band signed to a massive American label. There are three of them in the band, all capable players and songwriters with a good live act in their own right, with an excellent producer/bass player who has been playing live with them for about a year since they booted their original guy (who was decidedly unexcellent). The bass player produced most of the demos, but can't tour regularly or get a visa; I play bass for the touring shows he can't do, and for big gigs double on keyboard and guitar instead; neither of us are in the band. There is also a second member of the production team who does various backing track, songwriting, and live production duties but doesn't tour regularly and isn't in the band. Keeping up? Earlier in the year the three band-members went to America to meet with the label and meet a bunch of songwriters (because this is what major labels insist on doing after they've signed you on the strength of your songs...). They wrote about 5 songs out there with different producers, some of which will make the album and some of which will not. Due to time constraints of shuttling between NY and LA they only had about a day of studio time with each producer, so most of those songs were electric kits or drum machines and whoever was in the room played whatever was needed. This means a lot of the demos are either synthesised or not played by the respective instrumentalist, which now puts them in the unenviable position of having to come back home and learn a live arrangement of their own tunes. Fun times! Edited June 15, 2018 by borntohang 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowregisterhead Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Yes. A function band I gig with parted company with their guitarist recently. He was good at rustling up a gig, but as it transpired was also a pathological liar, and very good at fiddling the gig fee in his favour! Plus, it was only after he left that we suddenly realised what an unholy racket he had been making onstage. We're using two deps at the moment to cover gigs, both of whom are a massive breath of fresh air musically and personally... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, lowregisterhead said: Yes. A function band I gig with parted company with their guitarist recently. He was good at rustling up a gig, but as it transpired was also a pathological liar, and very good at fiddling the gig fee in his favour! Plus, it was only after he left that we suddenly realised what an unholy racket he had been making onstage... I think I met him once. Is this him? Spoiler Edited June 16, 2018 by SpondonBassed 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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