la bam Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) morning all, after years and years of looking for that fantastic smooth, warm, well rounded rich bass tone ............ ive found it was a pointless task...... the actual best tone for me is exactly the opposite to what i was looking for - its a rough, edgy, overdriven valve sound .......... which only becomes that rich warm bass sound i was looking for when in the mix of the rest of the band. has anyone else ever come round to this conclusion? Its amazing how that overdrive just blends in when in with the rest of the band, and how it fills any space without being obtrusive, really helping the sound of the band. i only came to it when i started listening to isolated bass tracks of my bass heroes (and the bass sounded terrible), then i copied it and played to backing tracks and it sounded glorious! then i put it in our band live and it had the same effect. so for me, its ampeg svt, or svt emulators (via my markbass evo), or similar all the way from now on. ive been playing 20 years and ive only just worked it out! Edited June 12, 2018 by la bam 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Maybe your Ric has something to do with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bam Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 nar....that went years ago! i only play vintage v4s now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Oh yes indeed, what works in an isolated environment (at home for example) is a very different story to what works 'in the mix' either recorded or on stage. I can think of so many examples! You have hit upon one of the best ways to hear the differences by seeking out isolated bass tracks and then to have a go at recreating them. Guitarists should absolutely do the same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Yep, I was amazed at when hearing John Deacon, John Taylor, James Jamerson, at how driven and gnarly their isolated sounds were, yet how well that sat in the mix as warm and rounded. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Yes! I recall having a long conversation with Dave Meros years ago about recording his bass tone (which is epic by the way) and he said his top tip was to add more drive than you think you need and he talked a bit about the importance of mids too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bam Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Lozz196 said: Yep, I was amazed at when hearing John Deacon, John Taylor, James Jamerson, at how driven and gnarly their isolated sounds were, yet how well that sat in the mix as warm and rounded. Yeh, it's john deacons sound I was trying to emulate. Much more overdriven than you'd think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) I play live a lot, and it's exactly what's been said above - all that searching for lovely bass tones in bedroom studio isolation goes out the window when in a band scenario - Schroeder cabs are a good illustration: they can be honky and unpleasant in isolation but they work really well with a band. You only have to hear, for example, Geddy Lee's soloed tone to hear how clanky and buzzy and gnarly it really is... It's also why all the navel-gazing and hand-wringing about tonewoods and fretboard materials makes me smile: it matters not a jot (well, maybe a jot, but a small one, at that) once the band starts playing. If you're a solo player, then yeah, knock yourself out, but with a live band (especially anywhere near a rock* band)? Nope. IMHO, YMMV, etc, etc... 😉 * Other genres are available, obv... 😁 Edited June 12, 2018 by Muzz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 To be honest i never really picked up on that even after 40 years of playing. We didn't have isolated bass tracks in my day LOL Just listened to a few of my fav bass players from Geddy thru to Gene Simmons. Songs i always thought had a nice clean bass sound also have that warm valve distortion sound when you listen to them as isolated bass. Carry On Wayward Son and Detroit Rock City being good examples for me. Maybe its time i had a little re-think about my live tone. Thanks for posting that. Very interesting topic. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visog Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Agree with the sentiment and this near spiritual quest has been undertaken by many on the 'Effects' forum. with many practical examples of how to achieve this without massive investment - latest contender in a long line being the Tech21 dUg pedal causing great excitement. I'll cite Chris Squire as my tone ambassador in this area... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I can now reveal that my 'valve amp tone' if you want to call it that is just a drive pedal and an IR. Recording has never been so easy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bam Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) If I'm honest - there's an ampeg svt3 and 8x10 cab at our practice room. I plugged in once before the rest of the band arrived, as I've always wanted to try one. I gave it 2 minutes before I decided it must have been thrashed to death or broken. Awful fuzzy sound, no real punch or warmth. Really disappointed. Sounded like an old gorilla amp. So I used my own amp instead. Then a few weeks ago for whatever reason, I couldn't bring my amp so I had to use it. I had a little eq and drive play around and it was still sounding pretty poor if I'm honest. Way too much drive not to get in the way of what the rest of the band were playing. Imagine a nice standalone bass tone then whack a thin sounding guitar distortion pedal on full over the top and that's what I was getting. Then, the band turn up, and as soon as the drums are playing ..... Wham!! The bloomin thing comes alive! Punchy, tight, warm ..... and errrrrr where has the awful overdrive gone? I don't know. I know it's still there, but I can't hear it. I reckon it turns into magic bass dust and just makes the whole rhythm section that little bit better. I don't know why I'm surprised, every rock band for 40 years has had those svts or similar on stage, but for some reason I thought I knew better. I didn't. Edited June 12, 2018 by la bam 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 One of my favourite bass tones over the years has been John Entwistle’s tone on The Real Me and a great line to boot. It’s smooth, warm and just lovely all over. Imagine my horror when I heard that isolated 😱! Just recently, I’ve started using my VTDI pedal on all the time with a fair chunk of overdrive (for me at least, I used to have it as clean as a whistle) both my drummer and guitarist have commented on how good it sounds, not that it wasn’t good before apparently, according to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I use the GK1001RBii head and have always kept their overdrive control almost off but might try it running with a bit more grunt. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beely Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 The theories for an "overdriven" sound put forward here chime rather well with an often-used recording studio trick. You record a clean and well rounded sound to capture the fullness of the bass. You then duplicate this on a new track to which you then add drive, distortion, grit, whatever you want to call it. At the same time you high-pass the track so you are left with a really gnarly, unpleasant sound with actually, not much bass in it. This then gets blended in with the original track, just below actually hearing it. It's amazing how this can make the bass sit better in the mix. I would imagine that is what is being experienced when hearing that sort of sound in a live situation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 2 hours ago, beely said: The theories for an "overdriven" sound put forward here chime rather well with an often-used recording studio trick. You record a clean and well rounded sound to capture the fullness of the bass. You then duplicate this on a new track to which you then add drive, distortion, grit, whatever you want to call it. At the same time you high-pass the track so you are left with a really gnarly, unpleasant sound with actually, not much bass in it. This then gets blended in with the original track, just below actually hearing it. It's amazing how this can make the bass sit better in the mix. I would imagine that is what is being experienced when hearing that sort of sound in a live situation. You've just described my set up mentioned above! Cool! Very pleased about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I find the mild overdriven sound helps when playing as a three piece as well, it fattens out the sound nicely (even better with mild compression). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 10 hours ago, dood said: Guitarists should absolutely do the same! When you listen to properly-recorded guitars in isolation it's a real ear-opener. Even well-known rock hits that apparently have a very chunky, distorted guitar sound are actually EQ'd quite thin, thus leaving the bass frequencies free and clear for the kick and bass guitar. If you can persuade your diva of a guitarist to do the same live, it really cleans up your sound a treat. Now you only have to get the idiot to turn down a bit (i.e. a lot) and you're sorted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfoxnik Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Great thread ☺ and yeah, I love counter-intuitive stuff like this! Totally agree with lots of the above comments; having spent a lot of time in recording studios over the years, the sounds that work in a studio mix are never what we think they are when we hear them solo. That's why I'm not generally a fan of that hifi and scooped mids bass tone that's been quite popular and prevalent in recent years - though obviously, in some contexts, it can work really well. These days, I use more overdriven bass sounds than I've ever done before, and find they work better in almost every context I've used them in , whether that's playing out and out rock tunes, or Steely Dan stuff, Joni Mitchell tunes, hip-hop style basslines etc, etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 12 hours ago, dood said: You've just described my set up mentioned above! Cool! Very pleased about that How do you set that up live if you don't mind me asking ? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said: How do you set that up live if you don't mind me asking ? Dave Really simple! So the drive pedal is the absolutely superb Billy Sheehan Signature Drive Deluxe. On the face of it seems like a fairly simple pedal, but it allows blending of driven and dry tones, but also by careful use of the tone control (which is more like a swept EQ than a treble attenuator) and the phase switch, you can get a wide variety of tones from 'peaky mids' to a scoop at around 500hz. The drive channel has an HPF built in to it already too. The compressor on board is also infinitely adjustable internally too so very easy to emulate that valve amp compression. There's also a boost button for extra bite when you need it. The IR I was using was sat on my Helix, but you could absolutely use the Mooer Radar to load your IR of choice. Or, if the budget doesn't stretch, I recommend the Mooer Micro DI (I actually have a Fender rebadged version) that features an EQ curve that sort of sounds like a 4x12, yet there's no bass drop off, so works perfectly for us bassists too. I do also have a micro EQ pedal that I have used a hot glue gun on to set the knobs in a specific position, but I've found that I am not really using that. The whole lot goes direct to PA as I am on IEMs virtually all the time now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 12 hours ago, discreet said: When you listen to properly-recorded guitars in isolation it's a real ear-opener. Even well-known rock hits that apparently have a very chunky, distorted guitar sound are actually EQ'd quite thin, thus leaving the bass frequencies free and clear for the kick and bass guitar. If you can persuade your diva of a guitarist to do the same live, it really cleans up your sound a treat. Now you only have to get the idiot to turn down a bit (i.e. a lot) and you're sorted... Yes, absolutely spot on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Reference listening to how music has been produced - has anyone been following the Rick Beato series - 'What makes a song great?' this series covers a range of artists and musical styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, No lust in Jazz said: Reference listening to how music has been produced - has anyone been following the Rick Beato series - 'What makes a song great?' this series covers a range of artists and musical styles. Rick is a great educator. I love watching his videos along with the likes of Adam Neely who is just insanely engaging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, la bam said: morning all, after years and years of looking for that fantastic smooth, warm, well rounded rich bass tone ............ ive found it was a pointless task...... the actual best tone for me is exactly the opposite to what i was looking for - its a rough, edgy, overdriven valve sound .......... which only becomes that rich warm bass sound i was looking for when in the mix of the rest of the band. has anyone else ever come round to this conclusion? It's not a crusade that I've signed up for. Had I not got into Basschat and read of experiences like your own I could easily have gone on the search for the Holy Grail of bass players. I've realised that even if you find it, that particular cup is not likely to be brimming over with the essence of good bass delivery. Having learned that the search, whilst worthy, is long and expensive I've set my barrow down. I'll work with whatever is at hand to try and get the best from it. Thanks is due to all those BC contributors including your good self for sharing their knowledge. Edited June 13, 2018 by SpondonBassed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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