thepurpleblob Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) I come from an orchestral background originally and playing with dynamics (as written of course) is a BIG THING. It's not especially difficult to play most instruments softly or loudly and things in between. However, to most 'rock' bands I have played in this is a complete mystery. There is one volume and it is loud. Why is this so difficult to understand? Even some quite rocky songs have some subtlety but not once the average pub band has got hold of it. That quiet middle eight is just as thrashed through as the chorus. Even otherwise excellent musicians seem to struggle with this. Is it me? Edited June 12, 2018 by thepurpleblob 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 We do it, exuberance may lessen the effect a little at points but it is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maude Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I play with dynamics, then I see our soundman fiddling with the tablet(desk) in a quiet bit to bring me up to level. Yes we've had words 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) Yes indeed missed by many a band. One huge problem is with certain musicians who are under the mysterious spell of thinking that things only sound good when REALLY loud. "My valve amp sounds better cranked" and "I can't get the tone out of my kit if I play lightly" I have heard oh so often. Thing is, I agree that certain equipment does indeed sound awesome loud, but are totally overkill for 90% of gigs. That Marshall 100W and 4x12 cabinet doesn't start to do that beautiful compression characteristic until the valves are working hard and the speaker cones are near their limits. By that point, the volume is tinnitus incurring. So, for the most part, that kit is the wrong kit for the job at the Dog and Duck on a Friday night. Edited June 12, 2018 by dood 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 Drummers are the worst. Well, I know that applies to almost any assertion 😂 However, I used to be one and I can absolutely promise you that it is possible to play drums quietly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 23 minutes ago, thepurpleblob said: Is it me? I can play quietly and often do so....... I suspect it IS you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I've asked our drummer if he could play quieter, he said "yes but it wouldn't be so much fun", well we all want to enjoy ourselves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 Just now, Twigman said: I can play quietly and often do so....... I suspect it IS you I CAN play quietly. That's rather my point. I've just found that while saying, "that's two fast/slow" is positively responded to, "that's too loud" just gets blank looks. This is even with quite experienced musicians 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, thepurpleblob said: Drummers are the worst. Well, I know that applies to almost any assertion 😂 However, I used to be one and I can absolutely promise you that it is possible to play drums quietly! It totally is! I'm very lucky to work with some really talented drummers and my 'function band' drummer knows how to set his kit for tone rather than volume. He has also played (like me) in metal bands and used a different kit accordingly that was better suited to keeping up with big stacks and crazy bass rigs! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 minute ago, thepurpleblob said: I CAN play quietly. That's rather my point. I've just found that while saying, "that's two fast/slow" is positively responded to, "that's too loud" just gets blank looks. This is even with quite experienced musicians In my band everyone understands the words Quiet, Slow, Space, Atmosphere and Tension - all words that seem to draw blank expressions on many..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, PaulWarning said: I've asked our drummer if he could play quieter, he said "yes but it wouldn't be so much fun", well we all want to enjoy ourselves That would be a combination of technique and equipment that would need to change for your drummer to still, ehem, have so much fun. And let's face it, there are many, many who don't like to be told to change either the way they sound or the way they play! 🤣😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 "Atmosphere and Tension"? I can only dream 😌 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) I played for 10 years with a blues band with a very 'sensitive' drummer. He was very aware of how dynamics can improve a song and it taught me a lot about light and shade. But many other bands I've played with don't understand what it can add to a song. My main band's present drummer, is a great drummer but has no idea of dynamics. When I ask him to play quiet, in particular sections within a song, I can see that it is difficult for him (usually he just stops hitting the snare). Edited June 13, 2018 by gjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, dood said: That would be a combination of technique and equipment that would need to change for your drummer to still, ehem, have so much fun. And let's face it, there are many, many who don't like to be told to change either the way they sound or the way they play! 🤣😂 I didn't day he couldn't play quieter I said he didn't want to, pardon, pass the ear plugs, decent drummer though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 24 minutes ago, dood said: Yes indeed missed by many a band. One huge problem is with certain musicians who are under the mysterious spell of thinking that things only sound good when REALLY loud. "My valve amp sounds better cranked" and "I can't get the tone out of my kit if I play lightly" I have heard oh so often. Thing is, I agree that certain equipment does indeed sound awesome loud, but are totally overkill for 90% of gigs. That Marshall 100W and 4x12 cabinet doesn't start to do that beautiful compression characteristic until the valves are working hard and the speaker cones are near their limits. By that point, the volume is tinnitus incurring. So, for the most part, that kit is the wrong kit for the job at the Dog and Duck on a Friday night. As you say, it's the different nature of the amps. Valve guitar amps need to be pushed to a certain limit before they produce 'that' tone. Even a 50 watt valve amp needs to be pushed to a level that's far too loud for most pub venues. Bass players tend to have much higher wattage amps, but we're more concerned with headroom, how much we can turn it up before the cabs start distorting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBass Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Our drummer wouldn’t know dynamics if it came up and kicked him in the Bollingers. See also groove, swing, feel, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzaboy Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 In my band it`s the lead player who I have volume issues with. Last gig he played through a mic`d up Peavey 100 watt head and 4 x 12 cab belonging to the venue. At sound check he was far too loud and was told so by me and the very good sound man. He was complaining he could hardly hear the amp and I told him his hearing must be gubbed as I was wearing ear plugs and it was still too loud. The sound guy told him to use in ears in the future but that ain`t gonna happen as he needs "his sound" Funnily enough, I have no problem with drummer boy and he could do with hitting them a bit harder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, thepurpleblob said: I come from an orchestral background originally and playing with dynamics (as written of course) is a BIG THING. Surely, playing with dynamics is sometimes a BIG THING and sometimes a little thing? 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, jezzaboy said: In my band it`s the lead player who I have volume issues with. Last gig he played through a mic`d up Peavey 100 watt head and 4 x 12 cab belonging to the venue. At sound check he was far too loud and was told so by me and the very good sound man. He was complaining he could hardly hear the amp and I told him his hearing must be gubbed as I was wearing ear plugs and it was still too loud. The sound guy told him to use in ears in the future but that ain`t gonna happen as he needs "his sound" Funnily enough, I have no problem with drummer boy and he could do with hitting them a bit harder! He’s standing in front of a cabinet with rubbish dispersion. The backs of his knees are getting a great volume, but like everyone in the audience it will sound sharp and scratchy. He needs to move away from the cabinet and point the cones upward directly at his ears. its a common complaint. Off Axis, I.e stand above the cabinet, you will hear less top end and clarity. Guitarists will crank the top end, gain and ultimately volume to compensate for these shortcomings. It will start to sound nice where they are stood, but the volume and top end will be searing to those in the audience and on the other side of the stage, on-axis with the speakers. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, dood said: He’s standing in front of a cabinet with rubbish dispersion. The backs of his knees are getting a great volume, but like everyone in the audience it will sound sharp and scratchy. I think at maybe the last (or second to last) jam night I went to there was a guitarist trying to set up his Orange valve head and cab (either a 4x10 or 4x12, dunno) while stood directly in front of it, drivers pointing at the back of his knees. Then he perched on the corner of the cab with it blasting out in front of him. Sounded bloody awful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 33 minutes ago, Cato said: As you say, it's the different nature of the amps. Valve guitar amps need to be pushed to a certain limit before they produce 'that' tone. Even a 50 watt valve amp needs to be pushed to a level that's far too loud for most pub venues. Indeed - so get a 1W or 5W amp and connect it to the PA! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I believe the Royal Opera House is being sued by a musician whose hearing was wrecked when sitting in the middle of an orchestra! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 This was partly why i gave up on my last band. There was more than 1 reason , but the rediculous volume helped. And naturally, the Les Paul / Marshall wielding lead git matched him. We were rehearsing one evening, and i always got plonked next to the drummer, and although he was loud, his practice / rehearsal kit was a bit dead and wasnt as loud as his gigging kit. Anyways, this rehearsal was even louder for some reason, and during some maniacal tubbing, he went onto the cymbals and i got that huge top end cymbal wash in my right ear, and ended up with a form of tinnitus for over a year. Everytime i walked anywhere, my right ear used get a sound like squishing when i put my right foot down. If you imagine the sound you get when putting a seashell next to your ear, but it stops as i picked my right foot up. So it went squish - no squish - squish - no squish. I also got the squishing sound when i put my head on the pillow at night, if i laid my head down on the right side with that ear on the pillow. I used to wear ear plugs at gigs but never at rehearsals because of the quieter kit he used, but i got caught out - once. That was enough - i wore plugs at every rehearsal after that. Thought i had permanent damage till it disappeared. Luckily, it was not the high pitched whistle that some people with permanent tinnitus get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I'm finally in a band with a great drummer AND a guitarist who can play quietly and I'm very grateful for that. Those who say they have to play loudly 'to get my sound' are talking crap, basically. Even rock bands can sound 'heavy' without being really loud. My view is that some people like to be loud to direct attention away from their playing, paradoxically. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 A lot of gigs I play these days (and for the last dozen or so years) are under the cosh with neighbours complaining about excessive noise. My solution would be that if the neighbours complain about the noise, the band causing the nuisance would have their gear impounded. Sold for charity, crushed or just set on fire, I don't care but IMO inconsiderate bands should be the ones suffering rather than another gig losing its licence and everyone else suffering as a result. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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