discreet Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, chris_b said: IMO inconsiderate bands should be the ones suffering rather than another gig losing its licence and everyone else suffering as a result. I can only agree. Overloud bands do themselves no favours. Venues are beginning to understand that a duo or a trio are more affordable and are generally quieter. Punters prefer this as they avoid being deafened and can hold a conversation without shouting at each other. If I'm in a bar or club and a band is silly loud I'll go somewhere else irrespective of how good the band is. Mind you, good bands tend not to be deafening. Excessive volume is tiring for all concerned and as said, is the enemy of subtlety, dynamics and any kind of decent show. Edited June 13, 2018 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 hours ago, skankdelvar said: Surely, playing with dynamics is sometimes a BIG THING and sometimes a little thing? Or maybe it's just further away..? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_lefty Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I think if you listen to most rock bands you find middle 8s and so on go on a different dynamic. I've had to point this out to a few bands using Red Hot Chilli's as an example. Also make a point of casually dropping it in conversation every now and then. It's amazing how changing dynamics can get you out of a rut too, we've been trying to play she sells sanctuary and it just sounds flat the whole way through so we've been tinkering with dynamics across different sections and it's brought the whole thing to life. Luckily in my band nobody wants to be the "star" and we all love it when a song comes out perfectly so the guys are receptive to changing dynamics. As am I, there's a song I barely play a note in and it sounds good that way with quiet verses so I'm ok with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Orchestral music is not like the music played in pubs and clubs, itwas never intended to be. Pub bands have to get people dancing and big variations in volume are rarely writen or performed in popular music. Subtle variations are easy to pick up in a concert hall by a seated audience, not so much in a noisy pub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Funny this topic should come up this week as I’m doing a show week (I do about 8 or 9 am drama ones a year with a team of uni/ conservatoire trainer musos) At the dress rehearsal I asked the piano player to turn down- no problem. The trumpet player asked the French horn player to swop places as those things are the Marshall stack of the orchestra, no problem. The guitarist asked the drummer to take it easy- no chance, coincidentally the drummer is crap. Anytime I work with really good musicians, they play for the room. I did a restaurant gig with a London session drummer once, he played kick, snare and hats only, twigs for sticks and I swear it was one of the deepest grooves I have ever played to. Wish he was on this weeks gig! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, scalpy said: I did a restaurant gig with a London session drummer once, he played kick, snare and hats only, twigs for sticks and I swear it was one of the deepest grooves I have ever played to. Wish he was on this weeks gig! I'm beginning to think that yer average bog-standard drummer is little better than a charlatan! He is inevitably the weakest link! And the guitarist. And singer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gs_triumph Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 9 hours ago, thepurpleblob said: I CAN play quietly. That's rather my point. I've just found that while saying, "that's two fast/slow" is positively responded to, "that's too loud" just gets blank looks. This is even with quite experienced musicians 100% this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, mikel said: Orchestral music is not like the music played in pubs and clubs, itwas never intended to be. Pub bands have to get people dancing and big variations in volume are rarely writen or performed in popular music. Subtle variations are easy to pick up in a concert hall by a seated audience, not so much in a noisy pub. One song we play is Radar Love. It nearly always gets people dancing. In the middle section we play as quiet as possible (ppp for you theorists) and get gradually louder (crescendo) over about 32 bars. The audience doesn't ever stop dancing. The dynamics add tension and the audience can feel it building until we hit the chorus with full force. It's a bit like the long drum roll in dance music before the "release" when the theme comes back in. That's not the only song where we use dynamics. There are several where we'll drop the volume for a section of guitar solo before coming back up to normal volume. It adds interest and certainly doesn't stop people dancing. On most songs it sounds better to back off slightly for the vocals, get louder for the solo or chorus, and then drop back down for the verse. It doesn't have to be quite so dramatic as my earlier example, just switching between mf and f (medium-loud and loud). The audience may not notice what we are doing but do know it sounds good. Playing too loud is a different subject entirely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJpullchord Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Need to play quiet for the start of them crescendo things innit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, Norris said: On most songs it sounds better to back off slightly for the vocals, get louder for the solo or chorus, and then drop back down for the verse. This... I'm in an originals band and it's also worth leaving out fills (or other overly-complex stuff) and keep it very simple wherever there is singing, as that's the focus of the song. Sounds obvious, but makes a big difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 The "my amp only sounds good at high volumes" argument is hogwash. Modern variable gain amps can create wide tonal variation at pretty well any volume. A less powerful amp will break up/overdrive at lower volumes, so maybe guitar players ought to think about downsizing from that Marshall/4x12 rig when playing pubs, clubs and the local wine bar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 one of the best guitar sounds I ever heard was a Glam rock band, the guitarist had a little practice amp cranked right up going through the PA, sounded awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: - The "my amp only sounds good at high volumes" argument is hogwash. Modern variable gain amps can create wide tonal variation at pretty well any volume. - A less powerful amp will break up/overdrive at lower volumes, so maybe guitar players ought to think about downsizing from that Marshall/4x12 rig when playing pubs, clubs and the local wine bar. Second point first, yes I totally agree. The Blackstar HT5 models for example are just superb, Even the onboard 12? Watt output of the Laney Ironheart preamp is plenty loud enough for most stuff to get that power amp drive going on too. First point, yes, modern amplifiers are capable of a wide range of tones and in theory that should be enough. However, old amps were designed to play loud., They had to be as IEMs didn't exist and on stage monitoring certainly didn't afford the quality of foldback sound (and power) that was required to do the job. There is indeed absolutely something extraordinary that happens when you take a 100W valve guitar amp and take it up to the point of ear splitting volume. Marshall's were known for that point just around 3/4 of max where the power amplifier compression started to get involved and I suppose the Celestion speakers of choice started to compress too which had a natural smoothing of the over all tone. Touch sensitivity becomes, well, more sensitive (ha) as well as natural feedback being easily attainable. I suppose a sort of paradox that to play very, very loud, you have to have an incredible touch sensitivity, making you feel more in control of your instrument I suppose. I'll take the Vox AC30 as an example. It's actually only a 30W amplifier. I've been in front of Brian May's own VOX amplifiers and they just don't do 'that sound' at lower volumes. Yeah, they sound great but there is something exciting about that particular amplifier being cranked to the max. Yes, it is all part of the design and all of those foibles can absolutely be designed in to lower power amplifiers and thus those huge sounds can be reproduced at lower volumes. We're seeing really exciting things happening in technology. I love the Positive Grid applications that emulate those famous amplifiers. Stunning for recording (and also live use) as well as hardware devices such as the Line 6 Helix that is also a very capable tool too. There are thankfully plenty of guitarists who are embracing this tech'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, PaulWarning said: one of the best guitar sounds I ever heard was a Glam rock band, the guitarist had a little practice amp cranked right up going through the PA, sounded awesome Oh yeah! I remember doing a gig where we had a young support band. The guitarist turned up with a little amp and a well beaten up zoom pedal from yesteryear. He plugged everything in and took his first chugs on the guitar in soundcheck. Me and my keyboard player just stood there with our jaws on the floor. This teenager, rocks up with his kit that he has saved like mad to buy and decimates everyone with a guitar tone to die for. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBass Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 hours ago, discreet said: My view is that some people like to be loud to direct attention away from their playing, paradoxically. Very true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Used properly it`s easily possible to do the bass amp/410 & Marshall 412 thing in a pub-sized venue, it`s the individuals using the gear in most cases that`s the problem. I`ve been amazed at how loud some bands play, to the point where it`s both painful to listen to, and where you can`t work out what is being played/sung either. Our dynamics are full power all the time, but then we`re a 3 piece punk band. We`re only ever as loud as the drummer, who although he plays fast isn`t particularly loud, which suits me fine. We have the 410 & 412, used to have smaller combos, which were just as loud but the sound wasn`t as full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrixn1 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 The other side of the loud vs quiet argument: 😄 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Lozz196 said: Used properly it`s easily possible to do the bass amp/410 & Marshall 412 thing in a pub-sized venue, it`s the individuals using the gear in most cases that`s the problem. I`ve been amazed at how loud some bands play, to the point where it`s both painful to listen to, and where you can`t work out what is being played/sung either. Our dynamics are full power all the time, but then we`re a 3 piece punk band. We`re only ever as loud as the drummer, who although he plays fast isn`t particularly loud, which suits me fine. We have the 410 & 412, used to have smaller combos, which were just as loud but the sound wasn`t as full. Lozz - I think your situation is a little different as you're not a pub covers band playing to random punters, you're an original balls-out punk band with an audience who have come to see you specifically. I'd be very surprised and maybe even a little disappointed not to have my eardrums rattled somewhat... Edited June 13, 2018 by discreet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 17 minutes ago, discreet said: Lozz - I think your situation is a little different as you're not a pub covers band playing to random punters, you're an original balls-out punk band with an audience who have come to see you specifically. I'd be very surprised and maybe even a little disappointed not to have my eardrums rattled somewhat... Yeah you`re probably right there Mark, kinda goes with the territory I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzmanb Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Sounds like you've been in bad bands if you can't do quiet bits well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzmanb Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Worst guitarist disease is end every line with a fill Cult Sanctuary And the world ! myangwarhyyyangyyangyang The world drags me down yangyangyangworrrrrr!! And the world mwaarrr yangteeeeteeeeyang !! you get the idea 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 hours ago, discreet said: I'm beginning to think that yer average bog-standard drummer is little better than a charlatan! He is inevitably the weakest link! And the guitarist. And singer. Unfortunately the drummer thing has some substance in my view. The old adage 'You're only as good as your drummer' will probably be my choice of epitaph! The evidence is clearly on display this week, the pit band play for another company with a different, pro drummer, will band call West Side Story in three hours for example and hit every tempo correctly for the entire week. This week the resident drummer is in- sounds like a gorilla building a shed after 4 cans of red bull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 minute ago, scalpy said: The old adage 'You're only as good as your drummer' will probably be my choice of epitaph! ...This week the resident drummer sounds like a gorilla building a shed after 4 cans of red bull... It's true, though. Ideally everyone should be competent at the very least. If the drummer is not, then essentially you have no band - and it will forever be a thorn in your side until you do something about it. Nothing worse than laboriously trying to push and pull a crap drummer timing-wise, IME. A real chore and takes all the joy out of something which should be a great pleasure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 of course there's probably just as many bad bass players about as there are drummers, guitarist and singers, the advantage we've got is "who notices the bass player" 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 21 minutes ago, PaulWarning said: ...there's probably just as many bad bass players about as there are drummers... True, but better a bad bass player with a good drummer than vice-versa... Total waste of a good drummer, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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