When can you play the 7th, 9th, #11th, 13th etc..?

[Westenra]

I know there's no solid "rules" in music and it all depends on the feel of the song, etc, but if the chord doesn't list it, can you play more than the triad or pentatonic scale?

Example if I come across a C major chord, should I just play the triad and pentatonic, or could I slip in a 7th there? What if I wanted to add some colour with a #11th, would I be asked to stay in the realm of the chord or would it be encouraged?

Hopefully that makes it clear...

[ambient]

You can play any note from the scale (and outside) really. It depends entirely on how you want it to sound.

Look at the transcribed line I've attached for instance. There's a lot of root notes, also some chromaticism, 4ths, 6ths.  Bar 17 for example the chord is a BbM7. The line starts on the root note Bb, the next note is a G which is the major 6th, the next is an F the 5th, back to the G then an A which is the 7th.

Edited June 16, 2018 by ambient

[Westenra]

27 minutes ago, ambient said:

You can play any note from the scale (and outside) really. It depends entirely on how you want it to sound.

Look at the transcribed line I've attached for instance. There's a lot of root notes, also some chromaticism, 4ths, 6ths.  Bar 17 for example the chord is a BbM7. The line starts on the root note Bb, the next note is a G which is the major 6th, the next is an F the 5th, back to the G then an A which is the 7th.

If we can play any note then why are there variations in the chord names of when to play the 7th and above extensions? Wouldn't Cmaj cover all the Cmaj7, Cmaj9, etc variations? Or are they more so for the keys/guitar? I'm probably thinking too much into this!

[ambient]

It’s telling the keyboard or guitar player what to include. Including a 6th or 11th actually in a chord gives it a lot more colour.

I tell students to analyse bass lines; try it yourself, pick any line that you know and compare it against the chords for the song or piece; analyse it and see what harmonically the line is doing. Or use the one above. There’s no mention of playing a 6th or 13th over the BbM7, but it’s in the line; the G.

Edited June 16, 2018 by ambient

[Steve Woodcock]

11 hours ago, Westenra said:

11 hours ago, Westenra said:

Example if I come across a C major chord, should I just play the triad and pentatonic, or could I slip in a 7th there? What if I wanted to add some colour with a #11th, would I be asked to stay in the realm of the chord or would it be encouraged?

 

Context and taste will dictate when it's appropriate to add sevenths and extensions. First of all, be aware that sevenths are a chord tone and therefore determine the quality of the chord, extensions (also know as tensions or upper structures) are more like flavouring or spice - they add richness to the chord but do not affect its function.

Below is a chart to help you determine the correct sevenths and extensions to use within diatonic major harmony, you will see the these notes are dictated by the scale each particular chord is derived from. Not all extensions are used for each chord type as some sound dissonant and are therefore considered 'avoid' notes - a general rule of thumb here is that an extension should be a whole tone above a chord tone (there are of course exceptions to this, such as on an altered dominant chord, but this a whole topic in itself).

Quote

10 hours ago, ambient said:

Bar 17 for example the chord is a BbM7. The line starts on the root note Bb, the next note is a G which is the major 6th, the next is an F the 5th, back to the G then an A which is the 7th.

 

Be careful in your analysis of the line here @ambient, by naming everything as an extension you are missing the true function of these notes - the first G in bar 17 is a diatonic approach note from above to the F (which is the 5th of the chord), the next G and A are simply passing tones from the F to the root note of Bb on beat 1 of the following bar.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Steve Woodcock
Duplicate image

[Bilbo]

Tuesdays. You can use them on Tuesdays.

[FinnDave]

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

Tuesdays. You can use them on Tuesdays.

Yes, but only between twelve noon and sunset.

[dlloyd]

On 16/06/2018 at 14:58, Westenra said:

I know there's no solid "rules" in music and it all depends on the feel of the song, etc, but if the chord doesn't list it, can you play more than the triad or pentatonic scale?

Example if I come across a C major chord, should I just play the triad and pentatonic, or could I slip in a 7th there? What if I wanted to add some colour with a #11th, would I be asked to stay in the realm of the chord or would it be encouraged?

Hopefully that makes it clear...

Context is everything. 

What sort of music are you playing? Getting freaky with chord extensions and alterations may be great in some styles or they might get you fired.

The bass has a fairly well defined role in most popular music. A major part of that is to outline the progression of the harmony. Thinking "jazz" (which is appropriate given you're talking about extended chords), the keyboard player or guitarist will be providing the rest of the harmony. They're often reliant on the bass outlining the basic triad, certainly on the strong beats of the bar, and use voicings that don't necessarily include the root. Stray too far and the harmony is lost. If you're talking about passing notes, it's less of an issue.

The best place to go nuts, if you have to, is on the dominant chord in a V-I progression. The pull towards the dominant to the tonic comes from the dissonance of the tritone between the 3 and b7 of the dominant chord. You can enhance this dissonance by adding further extensions... 9th, 11th (sometimes) and 13th

Because the tritone is symmetrical, you can invert it so the 3 becomes the b7 (and vice-versa) of another dominant chord a tritone away... the tritone substitution. D7 becomes Ab7 but retains the same function. In effect it becomes a D7b5b9. Use Ab9 and you add the #5 of D7. Add the 13 of Ab and you get the #9 of D7.

It's easy to go wrong with this, so use it sparingly... it tends to work better in minor ii-V-i progressions.

The other place to use interesting colouration is in modal music. If you're playing a lydian piece, you'll be outlining a maj7 chord, but the #11 will be perfectly acceptable. 

In country and western, stick to root & five.

[discreet]

On 16/06/2018 at 14:58, Westenra said:

I know there's no solid "rules" in music and it all depends on the feel of the song, etc, but if the chord doesn't list it, can you play more than the triad or pentatonic scale? Example if I come across a C major chord, should I just play the triad and pentatonic, or could I slip in a 7th there? What if I wanted to add some colour with a #11th, would I be asked to stay in the realm of the chord or would it be encouraged? Hopefully that makes it clear...

Ultimately you can play whatever you like. You'll know if it's right or not, because you'll either be lauded as a genius or kicked firmly in the scrotum.

Edited June 18, 2018 by discreet

[Lozz196]

3 hours ago, discreet said:

Ultimately you can play whatever you like. You'll know if it's right or not, because you'll either be lauded as a genius or kicked firmly in the scrotum.

Agreed, I think it was a prog about Bowie where the piano playing on Life on Mars was analysed and it`s apparently musically "wrong". Which is what made it so right.

[dlloyd]

10 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Agreed, I think it was a prog about Bowie where the piano playing on Life on Mars was analysed and it`s apparently musically "wrong". Which is what made it so right.

There's an interesting story about Life on Mars. There was a bit of a thing in the 60s with people writing English lyrics to French songs and having hits. Bowie tried it with a song called Comme d'habitude, writing a song called Even a Fool Learns to Love...

Paul Anka bought the rights to it and rewrote it as My Way, which was a bit successful, and a whizzed off Bowie (who got no royalties) rewrote it as Life on Mars.

[dlloyd]

whizzed???

[discreet]

16 minutes ago, dlloyd said:

whizzed???

Profanity filter. It's shitty.

[Westenra]

9 hours ago, dlloyd said:

Context is everything. 

What sort of music are you playing? Getting freaky with chord extensions and alterations may be great in some styles or they might get you fired.

The bass has a fairly well defined role in most popular music. A major part of that is to outline the progression of the harmony. Thinking "jazz" (which is appropriate given you're talking about extended chords), the keyboard player or guitarist will be providing the rest of the harmony. They're often reliant on the bass outlining the basic triad, certainly on the strong beats of the bar, and use voicings that don't necessarily include the root. Stray too far and the harmony is lost. If you're talking about passing notes, it's less of an issue.

The best place to go nuts, if you have to, is on the dominant chord in a V-I progression. The pull towards the dominant to the tonic comes from the dissonance of the tritone between the 3 and b7 of the dominant chord. You can enhance this dissonance by adding further extensions... 9th, 11th (sometimes) and 13th

Because the tritone is symmetrical, you can invert it so the 3 becomes the b7 (and vice-versa) of another dominant chord a tritone away... the tritone substitution. D7 becomes Ab7 but retains the same function. In effect it becomes a D7b5b9. Use Ab9 and you add the #5 of D7. Add the 13 of Ab and you get the #9 of D7.

It's easy to go wrong with this, so use it sparingly... it tends to work better in minor ii-V-i progressions.

The other place to use interesting colouration is in modal music. If you're playing a lydian piece, you'll be outlining a maj7 chord, but the #11 will be perfectly acceptable. 

In country and western, stick to root & five.

The first half of this makes a lot of sense thank you, the second half is a bit beyond what I currently know but hopefully this will change in the near future.

Thanks for the replies guys, even the sarcastic ones

[dlloyd]

58 minutes ago, Westenra said:

The first half of this makes a lot of sense thank you, the second half is a bit beyond what I currently know but hopefully this will change in the near future.

Thanks for the replies guys, even the sarcastic ones

I could walk you through it... do you have a guitar or a keyboard?

[discreet]

1 hour ago, Westenra said:

Thanks for the replies guys, even the sarcastic ones

Yeah, that Bilbo and FinnDave. Tsk! 

Edited June 18, 2018 by discreet

[FinnDave]

9 hours ago, discreet said:

Yeah, that Bilbo and FinnDave. Tsk! 

Just trying to help!