Live performance - have analogue effects pedals had their day?

[Al Krow]

After several years of gigging with just bass, lead, amp, cab and band, I started to get into the slippery slope of pedals 15 months or so back and wondered whether to go down the multi-fx vs dedicated pedals route.

I came to the conclusion that multis, other than the really high end stuff, were not bad and a great intro into particular effects but couldn't really compete with dedicated pedals, particularly in the 'harder' emulation stuff e.g. synth, filter, dirt, polyphonic octave up but were pretty decent at some of the other 'easier' stuff e.g. delay, flange, chorus, tremolo, with compression and octave-down somewhere in between. I ended up getting a couple of the more budget Zoom multi-fxs (MS-60B and B3n) and a bunch of dedicated pedals.

Then the Helix and Helix HX came along. They are hitting the 'definitely good enough' level for a lot, but not quite all yet, effects - and let's face it in a live band mix the audience is not going to notice the last 10% difference between what the Helix is doing and a dedicated analogue pedal on those effects where the Helix gets close - I know that is still not all of them. Importantly (for me anyway) the HX is also not much more than the cost of 2 or 3 decent analogue pedals.

I'm now working with a couple of guitarists (one who regularly deps for us) in a function covers band. Our main guitarist has a traditional analogue pedal board & Roland Blues cube amp; the dep has a Line 6 Helix ('full fat') and a relatively cheap Alto FRFR. The overall costs of their gear are about the same. I love the ability of the dep to programme his effects and have everything 'preset' for each song and effortlessly reorder if we decide on a different set list content or order. When it comes to linking songs our 'main' guitarist will be switching pedals on and off, faffing about tweaking knobs and in terms of song 'flow' spending around a minute between songs. Might not sound like much but if you have a dance floor audience it's not what they want. 

One of our BC'ers posted his board recently with a Helix HX and I'm rapidly coming to think that this is very much looking like the 'future' for live music; if so is the corollary for live performance that analogue pedals have had their day?

[uk_lefty]

Like the basses themselves you'll always have the "purists" who want the original sounds with all their imperfections, and the luddites like me who can't learn how to programme even the most simple multi FX. And those who embrace the new tech, learn it inside out and can use it to its most effective!

I have tried both zoom and boss multi fx over the years and was put off by how complex it is to edit the effects and the order of them and also by the sheer number of completely unusable sounds they come with. Something like a flyrig may be more my cup of tea. I have been enjoying dedicated pedals for quite a few years now, suits me far better, but I don't heavily use effects anyway.

[dannybuoy]

They haven't had their day yet, but that time is coming. Maybe a couple more generations from now, but I didn't feel the Helix could replace my favourite analog pedals just yet.

Things will change when you can design and upload your own FX creations to a modeller like the Helix, but some standardisation has to take place with a common open file format before that can happen.

Tons of pedals are digital these days, but every one we buy needlessly converts to and from analog to digital, adding latency and reducing fidelity... Take away the physical components and you are left with the algorithm, which can be sold at a lower price.  A system like VST FX for your DAW but on your pedalboard is required where you can buy effects for a few quid each or even free from multiple vendors and upload them. Closest we have to that right now is the Mod Duo on Kickstarter.

Edited June 17, 2018 by dannybuoy

[Al Krow]

21 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

I have tried both zoom and boss multi fx over the years and was put off by how complex it is to edit the effects and the order of them and also by the sheer number of completely unusable sounds they come with...

Just as an aside - I agree that editing Zoom effects was indeed a bit of a pain (particularly the interface on the MS-60B); that changed for me when this US developer made his Zoom editing software freely available. 

https://tonelib.net/

It's made editing Zoom patches both fun and a pretty straightforward, even for someone as computer non-savvy as me!

[CameronJ]

10 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

I have tried both zoom and boss multi fx over the years and was put off by how complex it is to edit the effects and the order of them and also by the sheer number of completely unusable sounds they come with. Something like a flyrig may be more my cup of tea. I have been enjoying dedicated pedals for quite a few years now, suits me far better, but I don't heavily use effects anyway.

I’m very much in this camp, however taking a closer look at the Helix family in particular has made me realise that Yamaha/Line 6 put a LOT of work into creating a user interface which is almost as simple to use as individual pedals. I’ve watched several demo videos where the “presenter” has just received the unit and is effectively working it out on the fly, yet they are able to set up patches quickly because it’s just so intuitively laid out. To be fair it’s never going to be as simple as a small board with a handful of analog pedals, or something like a Tech21 Fly Rig, but that isn’t an apples to apples comparison. To be able to match what the Helix (and similar systems like Headrush etc) can do in terms of number of available effects, routing options, inputs/outputs, you’d need a board the size of a dining room table for six. Example provided below 

[Skybone]

And especially with more and more bassists using DI pedals.

My guitar setup was fully analogue, cost a fortune, and sounded amazing. Boutique, UK made valve amp, hand wound pickups, the only digital element of the signal chain was the true bypass tuner pedal. Annoyingly, I can now get a very similar guitar sound from my Line6 HD500x. Though it doesn't have the same touch dynamics of the analogue setup, it's 80-85% there.

For bass, the HD500x is my go to kit. My bass amp lies in the spare room unused, and the pre-amp of the rehearsal room amp gets bypassed. I think it sounds great, and I've had no complaints from the rest of the band. In fact the only "complaints" I've had were down to my No.2 bass having new pickups, and the heights weren't quite right.

I'd like to get a Helix, but for now, the HD500x is more than what I need, it's ace.

[Maude]

My band think I'm a technophobe because I refuse to embrace new technology unless it makes MY life easier, if it makes life more difficult I don't need it. Yet this technophobe gigs a Variax bass through a Line6 X3 Live, DI'd straight to the X Air desk, no amp just a floor monitor. 

With digital multi effects I like that I can have several different settings of the same 'pedal', which is impossible to do with a real analogue pedal unless you buy more than one of each pedal. For instance, using a bit of dirt in the verse of a song, more of same dirt in the chorus and really kick it in to fill out a solo. 

[BigRedX]

The question is slightly wrong. It should be have non-programmable effects had their day?

There are some programmable analogue effects units - I own one the Roland GP8, which apart from the digital delay and chorus/flanger is all analogue but digitally controlled so it's programmable.

For me non-programmable effects had their day in the early 90s when I bought my first programmable effects unit. Before that in the 80s I was mostly playing synths where affordable keyboards with programmable memories couldn't come quick enough for me. When I went back to playing the guitar and bass, I briefly had a complex multi pedal set up, but the amount of messing around between songs, even if it was just to set the correct delay time was too much, and the moment I could afford a second hand GP8 I bought it, and haven't looked back.

Over the years I've had a few different programmable effects units for my guitar and bass rigs - Roland GP8, Peavey Bassfex, Line 6 BassPod XT and now the Line 6 Helix which along with an RCF745 FRFR cab has completely replaced all my old effects units and guitar and bass amps.

I can see why people think they need a particular effects unit to get a particular sound, but in the context of a full band mix is it really that important? In the studio I'm happy to try anything if I think it will give me a better sound for the song, but live the fact that I can hit a footswitch and know that I will all the correct effects in the correct order with the correct settings is far more important than whether my distortion or octaver is absolutely the most perfect one for the song when the programmable one in my Helix will be 90% right.

[Al Krow]

14 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The question is slightly wrong. It should be have non-programmable effects had their day?

Agree with a a lot of your post, above. However I think programmable analogue effects are still very much a tiny minority of available analogue pedals so I think broadly equating "non-programmable" and "analogue" is hopefully fine for our discussion; or as you state in your final sentence about "90% right" which still gets an A*, right? 😄

[Bluewine]

17 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

Like the basses themselves you'll always have the "purists" who want the original sounds with all their imperfections, and the luddites like me who can't learn how to programme even the most simple multi FX. 

I believe all my pedals are analog. The only programming I do is switching them from the Off position to On.

Blue

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Bluewine

[NJE]

I had a rehearsal yesterday and our guitarist said he had bought the flagship Helix board to try instead of his pedal board and valve amp. He went straight to PA (we all go through FOH live) and it was incredibly good with none of the stress of mic’ing up amps and noisy pedal clicks etc.

For me it is an excellent live solution and if you read /watch interviews with bands most of them will say the same about Fractal/positive grid/kemper. There isn’t enough difference live to warrant the pedal boards, and big expensive valve amps that need maintenance and care.

I think there will always be the pureists, and I love a valve amp as much as the next guy, but in the gigging world I think the nuances of the analog kit is lost.

 

[uk_lefty]

7 minutes ago, NJE said:

in the gigging world I think the nuances of the analog kit is lost

Having just done a dep gig where the on stage sound was a mushy low rumble for me, so I didn't even bother with overdrive not knowing what would come out the front, and seen the guitarists pedal board screw up one song and cause a few minutes break, I'm inclined to agree. I may go back to trying multi effects soon but someone really needs to do an idiots guide to programming them for the things you need most.

What I mean by that is not using terminology without explanation, so what's the difference between a patch and a bank? That used to stump me with my old zoom pedal years back. Then how do you put effects in a particular order? Start with those and then work up from there.

[Muppet]

Both myself and my guitarist have gone Helix.  The biggest benefit is consistency in sound and the ease in which we are able to set up the PA. We're not fiddling with buttons or tracing dodgy patch cables or balancing output volumes mid gig.  The ability to create complicated signal chains with ease and the variety of amps, cabs and effects on offer do it for me. There's no way  I could afford to do that in the analogue world. 

I'll concede that from a tone purist point of view the Helix isn't going to be 100% a match for valve amp and analogue pedals but for my live use it's ideal.

[Geek99]

I used to use back in the dark old days of six string but I just found them fiddly 

programmable Units were just coming in and I would have bought one had I not been desperately poor just for the convenience. I couldn’t care less about latency even then

i just use one setting on a zoom b2.1. I know it’s not how you’re supposed to use it but it means I don’t need to cart pedals around whatever their A/d flavour and I always have my sound right there 

 

[SpondonBassed]

23 hours ago, CameronJ said:

I’m very much in this camp, however taking a closer look at the Helix family in particular has made me realise that Yamaha/Line 6 put a LOT of work into creating a user interface which is almost as simple to use as individual pedals. I’ve watched several demo videos where the “presenter” has just received the unit and is effectively working it out on the fly, yet they are able to set up patches quickly because it’s just so intuitively laid out. To be fair it’s never going to be as simple as a small board with a handful of analog pedals, or something like a Tech21 Fly Rig, but that isn’t an apples to apples comparison. To be able to match what the Helix (and similar systems like Headrush etc) can do in terms of number of available effects, routing options, inputs/outputs, you’d need a board the size of a dining room table for six. Example provided below 

That's getting close to something like this:

Spoiler

Just saying.

[tonyquipment]

Imo if you use effects live, go for reliability. You can use whatever you like in the studio. The audience tbf nowadays doesn’t give a stinky poo about what nice gear you have on show. They just want to be entertained. It’s the disposable digital age we live in. Music isn’t top of the pops now pardon the pun. Heh. 

[tonyquipment]

Just now, tonyquipment said:

Imo if you use effects live, go for reliability. You can use whatever you like in the studio. The audience tbf nowadays doesn’t give a stinky poo about what nice gear you have on show. They just want to be entertained. It’s the disposable digital age we live in. Music isn’t top of the pops now pardon the pun. Heh. 

Stinky poo poo haha nice bc. I get carried away with the French. 

[Monkey Steve]

In terms of multi-FX, I tried embracing the new technology years ago, and just couldn't get on with it - a Zoom bass pedal when they first came out and were dirt cheap.  It wasn't that they weren't OK, just that they were really fiddly, and you were choosing between pre-determined settings rather than tweaking a knob to get things just right. 

I'm happy to concede that a modern version will be vastly superior and I've seen bands (and band mates) using them live without any problems.  But I don't feel the need to try them again.

I don't use or need a lot of effects (though I have more than I regularly use) and the ones i do have do exactly what I want.  In fact the only pedals I've gigged with lately have been a tuner and if I don't have my own SVT with me, a Tech 21 VT pedal, so I'm not exactly flying the "analogue" flag.

But I don't see either the stand alone or analogue pedals disappearing any time soon.  Not because of any refusal to use multi-FX from me, but because guitarists tend to be believers in the Holy Tone Grail and will spend endless amounts of money chasing it. Just look at the amount of boutique distortion pedals on the market, and the premium prices paid for vintage pedals that have a certain reputation and scarcity.

[CameronJ]

True. As long as players are willing to spend several hundred pounds on an analogue drive pedal (for example) which cost all of £19.50 to make, existing pedal builders will have no reason to move to digital tech.

Edited June 18, 2018 by CameronJ

[Yank]

Have you seen the pedal section in a Sweetwater catalog?  Pedals are here to stay.

[WinterMute]

I used the Line6 Bass pod XT for a number of years, both live and in the studio, now replaced with a Tech21 GED2112, but both have an old Boss Bass Chorus pedal on the FX loop as none of the choruses I've tried sound the same on the rare occasion I use it on the fretless...

Analogue has it's place as it doesn't sound the same as digital, that said, digital has great advantages in the studio and live.

[SpondonBassed]

Is there not room for both analogue and digital?  I find folk tend to get polarised towards one or the other when in fact you can have the best of both worlds with a bit of thought.

[Skol303]

2 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

Is there not room for both analogue and digital? 

^ This +1

The Helix products are great. I don’t own one but have played with one and loved it.

To answer the question: have analogue effects pedals had their day?

No. And I doubt they ever will. This discussion is in fact very analogous with the ongoing "digital vs analog" debate that can be found on literally every music production / sound engineering forum.

It basically boils down to the following conclusions:

1) It's now possible to convincingly emulate just about every aspect of analog FX/processors digitally - that is, to the extent that most people can't tell the difference (and those that can probably just had a lucky guess!).

Which means that...

2) It's more a question about 'workflow' or to put it another way, simplicity. Analog devices tend to be easier to operate and produce more immediate results - i.e. there's less 'faffing around' involved - and for some people, that helps them to concentrate on the music, which leads to a better end result.

And...

3) Some people just prefer the tactility of knobs and switches over mini-CPU screens and buttons; or prefer old stuff to new stuff; or whatever. In which case it's like the preference between a modern sports watch and a more traditional wind-up. They're both perfectly good for telling the time; and are both here to stay 🙂

[dave_bass5]

I like tech, so im fine with digital stuff. Im not sure i could tell the difference between analogue and digital anyway, and i think there is too much stigma attached having old or vintage gear, i dont fall for any of that emperors new clothes syndrome.

Saying that, i do like an easy life, and having the ability to tweak my settings in a live environment is a bigger issue than if its digital or analogue. So for me, id happily gig with all digital, but i must have easy access to the most important parameters. So far that would leave out the multi FX boxes.

My board includes 3 TC Electronic boxes and an SA Aftershock. All digital but with knobs. i like that. i dont care how the sound is processed, as long as i can fiddle with it easily.

[WinterMute]

2 hours ago, Skol303 said:

It's now possible to convincingly emulate just about every aspect of analog FX/processors digitally - that is, to the extent that most people can't tell the difference (and those that can probably just had a lucky guess!).

I have to disagree, I hear the difference and it matters to me, why else would we spend so long and so much money finding the right bass/amp/cab/effects/case/tea...?

No digital system modelled, synthesised, convoluted etc. sounds as good the real thing, I use Universal Audio plug-ins because they are the best sounding in the market to my ears, but I'd still take your hand off if you offered me an 1176 or an LA2A in good nick.

Each to their own, I'll use what sounds good to me, but I most definitely can tell the difference.