radiophonic Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I've waded through the 'If you could only choose...' filter thread, but my question is a bit different. I'm after a filter with expression control, but my options look pretty limited - certainly for 'in production'. I have a basic filter on my Malekko Scrutator, but there's no real control over the resonance or the slope (just sweep direction, LP/BP and Q midpoint). Quite usable for an 'extra' but lacking flexibility. One option I've considered is the SA Manta. It ticks all the boxes in terms of functionality that I need, but has a lot that I don't. Also, what's the deal with the expression control? It looks like a proprietary cable (risky). Do you have to use the SA pedal or is this just for additional control, beyond the usual parameter sweeps? What I'm after is just a really good synthy sounding LPF that I can trigger with an envelope follower or expression pedal. The LFO control on the Manta looks interesting, but much of the other functionality look superfluous (I have all the phasing and distortion sounds I need already and I doubt I'll get a better foldover distortion for my purposes than the Scrutator, which is a beast in that department). Are there any alternatives out there for similar money, but without all the additional knobs and buttons and ideally in a more standard form factor? I almost pulled the trigger on the s/h Xerograph that came up on here, but again the need for a specific expression pedal to get the most out of it put me off. Wonderlove is a lot more money of course. Any others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Do you have an expression pedal already? Didn't know the Xero needed anything special, worked fine with my Moog EP-2 (and I can sell you one of those!). The Manta needs the hub to work with a generic expression pedal, otherwise you have to get the SA one. They are working on a new filter pedal though in the format of the Aftershock, although not sure how long that would be, or if it will accept a generic expression pedal (probably not). There is the EHX Enigma if you can deal with the size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiophonic Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) The Xerograph needs a Moog pedal - the range knob works differently. It’s in the manual. I already have a couple of non moog pedals and I was hoping to avoid additional outlay - the source pedal is pricy too. I’ll pass I think. I did look at the enigma but I’ve struggled to find a decent demo and nothing using the expression option. It is very bulky too. Edited June 21, 2018 by radiophonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 hours ago, radiophonic said: I've waded through the 'If you could only choose...' filter thread, but my question is a bit different. I'm after a filter with expression control, but my options look pretty limited - certainly for 'in production'. I have a basic filter on my Malekko Scrutator, but there's no real control over the resonance or the slope (just sweep direction, LP/BP and Q midpoint). Quite usable for an 'extra' but lacking flexibility. One option I've considered is the SA Manta. It ticks all the boxes in terms of functionality that I need, but has a lot that I don't. Also, what's the deal with the expression control? It looks like a proprietary cable (risky). Do you have to use the SA pedal or is this just for additional control, beyond the usual parameter sweeps? What I'm after is just a really good synthy sounding LPF that I can trigger with an envelope follower or expression pedal. The LFO control on the Manta looks interesting, but much of the other functionality look superfluous (I have all the phasing and distortion sounds I need already and I doubt I'll get a better foldover distortion for my purposes than the Scrutator, which is a beast in that department). Are there any alternatives out there for similar money, but without all the additional knobs and buttons and ideally in a more standard form factor? I almost pulled the trigger on the s/h Xerograph that came up on here, but again the need for a specific expression pedal to get the most out of it put me off. Wonderlove is a lot more money of course. Any others? The Manta works with a standard expression pedal if you hook it up to the hub (which is brilliant as it allows space for 128 presets across up to 5 SA pedals). The Xerograph Deluxe also takes a standard expression pedal. The version on here that sold (formally mine) simply lacks the extra footswitch present on the newest version which allows the expression to be switched in or out without having to remove the cable. Wonderlove has expression (with its own button on the newer versions). EHX Qballs Enigma has expression control and is a great filter. Moog MF-101 sounds amazing but has very limited envelope control but very flexible expression control. Massive form factor though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GisserD Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, radiophonic said: the source pedal is pricy too. I’ll pass I think. i have one. ill let it go cheap. PM if your interested Honestly, the manta is the most versatile filter out there. even with no hub, you still have 2 presets. and it has gated distortion built in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daz39 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 34 minutes ago, GisserD said: i have one. ill let it go cheap. PM if your interested Honestly, the manta is the most versatile filter out there. even with no hub, you still have 2 presets. and it has gated distortion built in. +1 - I've had a Dimension Reverb, Guitar OFD and an Orbital Modulator. All so clever and tweakable (I can't be bothered with the app stuff so the new One Series pedals don't appeal too much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, GisserD said: i have one. ill let it go cheap. PM if your interested Honestly, the manta is the most versatile filter out there. even with no hub, you still have 2 presets. and it has gated distortion built in. If not, there’s a wanted ad up for one that went up recently. Plus there were two people interested in mine when I (foolishly) listed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Contact Taylor at IE and ask him what the optimal range is for the expression pedal. I'm sure it's not just the Moog it'll work with. Also any idea what resistance yours is? I think the Moog if 50K if memory serves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiophonic Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, dannybuoy said: Contact Taylor at IE and ask him what the optimal range is for the expression pedal. I'm sure it's not just the Moog it'll work with. Also any idea what resistance yours is? I think the Moog if 50K if memory serves. This is what I'm on about: "The recommended expression pedal to use is the Moog EP-3. It's wired to correctly interface with the Xerograph Deluxe and has the range attenuator knob, which is necessary for setting the range of the sweep. Set the low frequency with the Freq knob on the XD, then use the range knob on the EP-3 to set the maximum frequency. Using these two controls, you can define a sweep as narrow as a few semitones, within whatever frequency band you desire. Most other expression pedals have a minimum value limiter, rather than the maximum value. This is not useful here as it duplicates the function of the Freq knob on the XD". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Exactly - it's the 'recommended' one, not the only one that will work. What do you have now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Many expression pedals have a range knob, such as the Roland Ev-5 which works just fine, though it only runs 0-3v as opposed to the Moog’s 0-5v so its Rangel is limited a bit at the extreme ends of the sweep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiophonic Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 @Quatschmacher @dannybuoy It's that sort of detail that's important though. The implication of the Xerograph manual is that the range knob of most other pedals would just replicate the minimum value set at the pedal itself, rather than the upper limit. I'm not sure how you establish this kind of thing short of just demoing a lot of pedals (impractical). I'm using a re-purposed Boss FV30H volume pedal with the Malekko (small footprint, built like a tank and I had one lying around). Actually, I've just realised that the Malekko works in almost the same way as the Xero - lower limit set at the pedal if sweeping up / upper limit if sweeping down. As with the Xero it's the 'end' point that is set by the expression pedal. All a bit pie in the sky though, because I don't think you can buy a Xero at the moment and the one that came up here last week coincided with my car windscreen breaking, so money went elsewhere. I think the Manta is a bust for me - I just don't like the idea of dedicated controllers or proprietary cables. I've already got an expression pedal and a volume pedal on my board and my plan had been to use the spare channel from one of these as a second expression controller. Three treadles on one board just isn't practical for gigging. Given the limited options, it might be simpler if I go for a conventional small footprint envelope filter (maybe the MXR, which I've owned before, or the EQD for the LP/BP option) and make do with the Malekko if I need expression control. Time to re-read the 'if you could only have one' thread. Thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 1 hour ago, radiophonic said: @Quatschmacher @dannybuoy It's that sort of detail that's important though. The implication of the Xerograph manual is that the range knob of most other pedals would just replicate the minimum value set at the pedal itself, rather than the upper limit. I'm not sure how you establish this kind of thing short of just demoing a lot of pedals (impractical). I'm using a re-purposed Boss FV30H volume pedal with the Malekko (small footprint, built like a tank and I had one lying around). Actually, I've just realised that the Malekko works in almost the same way as the Xero - lower limit set at the pedal if sweeping up / upper limit if sweeping down. As with the Xero it's the 'end' point that is set by the expression pedal. All a bit pie in the sky though, because I don't think you can buy a Xero at the moment and the one that came up here last week coincided with my car windscreen breaking, so money went elsewhere. I think the Manta is a bust for me - I just don't like the idea of dedicated controllers or proprietary cables. I've already got an expression pedal and a volume pedal on my board and my plan had been to use the spare channel from one of these as a second expression controller. Three treadles on one board just isn't practical for gigging. Given the limited options, it might be simpler if I go for a conventional small footprint envelope filter (maybe the MXR, which I've owned before, or the EQD for the LP/BP option) and make do with the Malekko if I need expression control. Time to re-read the 'if you could only have one' thread. Thanks for the input. As I said, your current expression pedals will work just fine with the Manta via the hub (which does indeed use a proprietary TRRS cable). You’re really missing out by ruling it out due to that. Worth considering if you want a 2-pole or 4-pole filter. There are fewer 4-pole ones out there (Moog, Manta, Xerograph and WMD Protostar are the only ones I know of). Actually the Protostar might be up your street. It’s actually very much smaller than it looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiophonic Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 24 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said: As I said, your current expression pedals will work just fine with the Manta via the hub (which does indeed use a proprietary TRRS cable). You’re really missing out by ruling it out due to that. Worth considering if you want a 2-pole or 4-pole filter. There are fewer 4-pole ones out there (Moog, Manta, Xerograph and WMD Protostar are the only ones I know of). Actually the Protostar might be up your street. It’s actually very much smaller than it looks. The Hub adds another £100 odd on top of the cost of the Manta + more footprint + another power draw. For that money/real estate, you're into Moog territory! The footprint is a real dealbreaker - I've deliberately limited my board size for the sake of sanity (Novo 18). I can swap out a Phase 90 and I have about one additional pedal's worth of space. The Manta without hub would fit with some rejigging and I already have an expression pedal off the board - which is why I originally asked about compatibility. Something MXR / Proton / Spatial Delivery sized would be a straight swap out for the phaser. If I cramp the pedals up any closer, the board becomes prone to random switching errors when playing live and I wouldn't want any more satellite pedals. WRT to the slope, one of the things which appealed about the Xero was the 2 pole / 4 pole switching option. I'm assuming the Manta is switchable too, given it's overall flexibility. I've just finished the other thread - no-one mentioned the Spatial Delivery. Has no-one tried it or is it a bust?? Just looked at the Protostar - $$$ but looks very configurable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, radiophonic said: The Hub adds another £100 odd on top of the cost of the Manta + more footprint + another power draw. For that money/real estate, you're into Moog territory! The footprint is a real dealbreaker - I've deliberately limited my board size for the sake of sanity (Novo 18). I can swap out a Phase 90 and I have about one additional pedal's worth of space. The Manta without hub would fit with some rejigging and I already have an expression pedal off the board - which is why I originally asked about compatibility. Something MXR / Proton / Spatial Delivery sized would be a straight swap out for the phaser. If I cramp the pedals up any closer, the board becomes prone to random switching errors when playing live and I wouldn't want any more satellite pedals. WRT to the slope, one of the things which appealed about the Xero was the 2 pole / 4 pole switching option. I'm assuming the Manta is switchable too, given it's overall flexibility. I've just finished the other thread - no-one mentioned the Spatial Delivery. Has no-one tried it or is it a bust?? Just looked at the Protostar - $$$ but looks very configurable. Nah - you can pick up both the Manta and Hub second hand for £150 all in. The Hub really comes into its own if you have more than one SA pedal on your board. And on mine, it doesn't take up a vast amount of space or more specifically if I took it off my board it wouldn't leave enough space for anything else! Point is the Manta is a 'best in class' pedal for the money. For around £90 to £100 second hand you won't find anything to touch it. Edited June 22, 2018 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiophonic Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Al Krow said: Nah - you can pick up both the Manta and Hub second hand for £150 all in. The Hub really comes into its own if you have more than one SA pedal on your board. And on mine, it doesn't take up a vast amount of space or more specifically if I took it off my board it wouldn't leave enough space for anything else! Point is the Manta is a 'best in class' pedal for the money. For around £90 to £100 second hand you won't find anything to touch it. I've not seen a s/h one for anything close to £90. For that money I'd bite your hand off and just use it without the expression option! I think BD wanted 120 or similar for the pedal alone last time one came up. Nothing on ebay or Reverb at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) Put a wanted ad up on here and also on the BassPlayer's market forum? They do come up from time to time in the FS (I got mine from a fellow BCer); here's an example of one that could have been bought for £90 before the seller came back to his senses... Edited June 22, 2018 by Al Krow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, radiophonic said: I've not seen a s/h one for anything close to £90. For that money I'd bite your hand off and just use it without the expression option! I think BD wanted 120 or similar for the pedal alone last time one came up. Nothing on ebay or Reverb at the moment. Mantas consistently come up for £85-90, hubs for £50. Edited June 22, 2018 by Quatschmacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) Manta does 2,4 and 6-pole, notch, phaser, multipeak, single peak, band pass, low pass, high pass. Xerograph was more immediately useable than the protostar but both had poorly-implemented downsweeps. The newest version of the Xerograph did address that. Edited June 22, 2018 by Quatschmacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiophonic Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 Well today is payday, so it would be a good moment for one to materialize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, radiophonic said: Well today is payday, so it would be a good moment for one to materialize. Hit @GisserD up, didn’t he say he was thinking of selling his in another thread? Manta, that is. Edited June 22, 2018 by Quatschmacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GisserD Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said: Hit @GisserD up, didn’t he say he was thinking of selling his in another thread? Manta, that is. nope. i was referring to the SA exp pedal soz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, GisserD said: nope. i was referring to the SA exp pedal soz I did wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quatschmacher Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 @GisserD reflex or dual expression? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronJ Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 I do often think that selling my Manta was foolhardy. Thankfully they can be bought used for reasonable pennies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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