SA Manta alternatives?

[GisserD]

18 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

@GisserD reflex or dual expression?

Dual expression 

[Quatschmacher]

8 hours ago, CameronJ said:

I do often think that selling my Manta was foolhardy. Thankfully they can be bought used for reasonable pennies!

Probably was, though if you’re not really missing it…

[AJ567]

On 21/06/2018 at 09:16, radiophonic said:

I've waded through the 'If you could only choose...' filter thread, but my question is a bit different. I'm after a filter with expression control, but my options look pretty limited - certainly for 'in production'. I have a basic filter on my Malekko Scrutator, but there's no real control over the resonance or the slope (just sweep direction, LP/BP and Q midpoint). Quite usable for an 'extra' but lacking flexibility. One option I've considered is the SA Manta. It ticks all the boxes in terms of functionality that I need, but has a lot that I don't. Also, what's the deal with the expression control? It looks like a proprietary cable (risky). Do you have to use the SA pedal or is this just for additional  control, beyond the usual  parameter sweeps?  What I'm after is just a really good synthy sounding LPF that I can trigger with an envelope follower or expression pedal. The LFO control on the Manta looks interesting, but much of the  other functionality look superfluous (I have all the phasing and distortion sounds I need already and I doubt I'll get a better foldover distortion for my purposes than the Scrutator, which is  a beast in that department). Are there any alternatives out there for similar money, but without all the additional knobs and buttons and ideally in a more standard form factor?  I almost pulled the trigger on the s/h Xerograph that came up on here, but again the need for a specific expression pedal to get the most out of it put me off. Wonderlove is a lot more money of course. Any others? 

Xerograph works fine with any standard expression pedal from 10k - 50k. You only need a expression pedal with range control if you want to lower the frequency at the ‘toe’ end. With no range control it can get harsh at the toe end but only if your settings are quite extreme. It’s just preference - you might even like it that way.

I use my xerograph with a home made expression pedal. No range pot to start with, but I added one later just to try it. Very easy to add a range pot to any standard expression pedal - happy to talk you through it if you like.

[radiophonic]

I've just splurged on an SA Manta, so I'm completely skint again! In addition to the filtering, I'm hoping it will give me enough soft-clip dirt options to obviate the Pork Loin, because otherwise it won't fit on my board without major rethink. I do need two delays and two loopers, honestly. I'll have to make do without expression control for the time being, but given the breadth of filter options, I'll put up with that. I still have the Scrutator if I need a basic foot controlled sweep.

[Quatschmacher]

6 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

I've just splurged on an SA Manta, so I'm completely skint again! In addition to the filtering, I'm hoping it will give me enough soft-clip dirt options to obviate the Pork Loin, because otherwise it won't fit on my board without major rethink. I do need two delays and two loopers, honestly. I'll have to make do without expression control for the time being, but given the breadth of filter options, I'll put up with that. I still have the Scrutator if I need a basic foot controlled sweep.

The dirt can only be used in combination with a filter. However you could open up the frequency to taste, turn down resonance and set envelope depth to zero in order to just use the dirt. 

[radiophonic]

7 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

The dirt can only be used in combination with a filter. However you could open up the frequency to taste, turn down resonance and set envelope depth to zero in order to just use the dirt. 

I figured there would be a way technically, it's more getting the flavour right. The Pork Loin is an odd pedal - completely meh on it's own, but in a band it sits exactly right in the mix. It's like all those old 70s rock records when you hear the isolated bass and realise it wasn't clean after all.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, radiophonic said:

I've just splurged on an SA Manta, so I'm completely skint again! In addition to the filtering, I'm hoping it will give me enough soft-clip dirt options to obviate the Pork Loin, because otherwise it won't fit on my board without major rethink. I do need two delays and two loopers, honestly. I'll have to make do without expression control for the time being, but given the breadth of filter options, I'll put up with that. I still have the Scrutator if I need a basic foot controlled sweep.

Congrats on the purchase.

Commiseration on the consequent financial misery. (Did you buy new or manage to find one used?) Good job you're not into Chase Bliss pedals then, eh? 😄

Enjoy the Manta - look forward to your thoughts.

[GisserD]

20 hours ago, radiophonic said:

I've just splurged on an SA Manta, so I'm completely skint again! In addition to the filtering, I'm hoping it will give me enough soft-clip dirt options to obviate the Pork Loin, because otherwise it won't fit on my board without major rethink. I do need two delays and two loopers, honestly. I'll have to make do without expression control for the time being, but given the breadth of filter options, I'll put up with that. I still have the Scrutator if I need a basic foot controlled sweep.

great! welcome to the club!

just a word of warning... it takes a while to understand this thing! dont give up too early. the sounds are in there, you just have to learn to coax them out.

[radiophonic]

13 minutes ago, GisserD said:

great! welcome to the club!

just a word of warning... it takes a while to understand this thing! dont give up too early. the sounds are in there, you just have to learn to coax them out.

No worries. I'm in inveterate tweaker!

[radiophonic]

So regarding the Hub option for this.  I just a quick squint at the manual and it seems I'd also need a midi controller of some sort to get any real use out of it. Aside from connecting a regular expression pedal, what use is the Hub as an add on? Seems like it'd be really powerful if you have multiple SA pedals and a midi selector but as a standalone, not so much,

Edited June 29, 2018 by radiophonic

[Quatschmacher]

1 hour ago, radiophonic said:

So regarding the Hub option for this.  I just a quick squint at the manual and it seems I'd also need a midi controller of some sort to get any real use out of it. Aside from connecting a regular expression pedal, what use is the Hub as an add on? Seems like it'd be really powerful if you have multiple SA pedals and a midi selector but as a standalone, not so much,

Do you have an iPhone or iPad? If so MIDI Pad 2 is a £3 app that you can use to send program messages. It works fine. Plug into the hub’s USB port and a camera connection kit into the iPhone.

The hub allows you to store 128 presets in addition to the 2 hardware presets on the pedal. Really useful even if you only own the one pedal.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Quatschmacher

[radiophonic]

Ok, that sounds pretty cool.  I'd be a bit nervous having my phone attached to the pedal at gigs, but for working up patches it sounds like a good idea.

[Quatschmacher]

Just now, radiophonic said:

Ok, that sounds pretty cool.  I'd be a bit nervous having my phone attached to the pedal at gigs, but for working up patches it sounds like a good idea.

I know what you mean. The phone is also not foot-controllable. Sadly MIDI Pad 2 doesn’t have a function to share pages created. (I have emailed them to request this functionality.) It’s a shame as I spent quite a bit of time creating one which allows instant access to patches 1-128 which involves tediously configuring each button manually to have the corresponding program number (sliders for choosing the parameters was a bit tricky). They should write some code to automate the most widely-used configurations or have some templates. Still, it works fine now for creating patches away from a PC.

For live use, a foot controller will be needed. @dood has a couple for sale on the effects sale forum.

[radiophonic]

3 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

I know what you mean. The phone is also not foot-controllable. Sadly MIDI Pad 2 doesn’t have a function to share pages created. (I have emailed them to request this functionality.) It’s a shame as I spent quite a bit of time creating one which allows instant access to patches 1-128 which involves tediously configuring each button manually to have the corresponding program number (sliders for choosing the parameters was a bit tricky). They should write some code to automate the most widely-used configurations or have some templates. Still, it works fine now for creating patches away from a PC.

For live use, a foot controller will be needed. @dood has a couple for sale on the effects sale forum.

It is the first law of Basschat that gear I want will appear in the free ads, only when I have just spent all my cash on something else!  

[Quatschmacher]

2 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

It is the first law of Basschat that gear I want will appear in the free ads, only when I have just spent all my cash on something else!  

So true. The second law is that something I’ve wanted for ages, rarely comes up and I spent loads on then comes up multiple times for sale at vastly reduced prices at the point I need to sell it. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Quatschmacher

[radiophonic]

Well it's arrived.  First impressions aren't exactly promising though. The top plate seemed to be partly detached from the unit. It popped back in ok but for something that's designed to be jumped on, I'm a bit nonplussed. A bigger issue i that I can't seem to get the footswitches to latch. The pedal engages when I hold them down but they rlease as soon as I take my foot off. I can't see anything in the manual about this.... Hopefully this isn't a dud.

[GisserD]

24 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

Well it's arrived.  First impressions aren't exactly promising though. The top plate seemed to be partly detached from the unit. It popped back in ok but for something that's designed to be jumped on, I'm a bit nonplussed. A bigger issue i that I can't seem to get the footswitches to latch. The pedal engages when I hold them down but they rlease as soon as I take my foot off. I can't see anything in the manual about this.... Hopefully this isn't a dud.

That dosent sound right at all! 

I hope you aren't put off if it is a dud

Is it from a reputable source or flecebay ? 

Edited June 29, 2018 by GisserD

[Quatschmacher]

Try a factory reset. If it’s been fed too little power it can lock up and do weird stuff. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Quatschmacher

[GisserD]

4 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Try a factory reset. If it’s been fed too little power it can lock up and do weird stuff. 

Very true. Underpowered digital pedals do weiereeid things

[Quatschmacher]

In fact, make sure it’s getting 180-200mA by itself. I’d avoid daisy chaining it - that’s how I lost my original presets; it went all weird, made funny noises and locked up. 

[radiophonic]

Its sorted.  I did factory reset. It was on it's own line though - all my digital stuff bar the dittos are run like that.  I had to rejig my board quite a bit due to the relatively low position of the switches, but on the upside I've managed to retain the Pork Loin and running that into the filter already sounds very promising. If I get a neuro, I'll need a new board unfortunately - this tetris game has a single solution and I'm  already a bit concerned about how cramped it is. I don't think I could lose anything without sacrificing some quite specific sounds unless I move the volume pedal onto the floor - and after one particular gig where the stage was basically a thin tarp on grass and the volume pedal sunk into the ground every time I went to use it - I'd prefer to keep it mounted.  @GisserD was right that it takes a while to get the sounds up - the Option Control is not the most intuitive  - but a couple of hours last night got me two good basic presets - a fast quacky one that works the the Pork Loin and a slow Sine Wave LFO sweep that works with the Okto Nojs.  I can already see that 2 presets is going to be annoying - I really need a decent phaser sound too, since I've had to bench my Phase 90 and those tiny option controls aren't going to be much fun under stage lights.  First impressions are that the sounds are quite a bit more subtle than I'd expected. Most of the action so far is either the 2 and 4 pole or parallel single peak filters, which I seem to be the gnarliest.  The only previous filter I've owned in an MXR BOD and I remember it being pretty aggressive.  This may be inaccurate though. I've got rehearsals with two bands this weekend so its going to be fun hearing what this thing does at proper volume.

[Quatschmacher]

On 30/06/2018 at 08:46, radiophonic said:

Its sorted.  I did factory reset. It was on it's own line though - all my digital stuff bar the dittos are run like that.  I had to rejig my board quite a bit due to the relatively low position of the switches, but on the upside I've managed to retain the Pork Loin and running that into the filter already sounds very promising. If I get a neuro, I'll need a new board unfortunately - this tetris game has a single solution and I'm  already a bit concerned about how cramped it is. I don't think I could lose anything without sacrificing some quite specific sounds unless I move the volume pedal onto the floor - and after one particular gig where the stage was basically a thin tarp on grass and the volume pedal sunk into the ground every time I went to use it - I'd prefer to keep it mounted.  @GisserD was right that it takes a while to get the sounds up - the Option Control is not the most intuitive  - but a couple of hours last night got me two good basic presets - a fast quacky one that works the the Pork Loin and a slow Sine Wave LFO sweep that works with the Okto Nojs.  I can already see that 2 presets is going to be annoying - I really need a decent phaser sound too, since I've had to bench my Phase 90 and those tiny option controls aren't going to be much fun under stage lights.  First impressions are that the sounds are quite a bit more subtle than I'd expected. Most of the action so far is either the 2 and 4 pole or parallel single peak filters, which I seem to be the gnarliest.  The only previous filter I've owned in an MXR BOD and I remember it being pretty aggressive.  This may be inaccurate though. I've got rehearsals with two bands this weekend so its going to be fun hearing what this thing does at proper volume.

Glad to hear it’s sorted.

Have you switched it into “extended mode”? If not, you should as you get 24 filters in total. I find I mostly use the 4-pole filter but there are some really nasty-sounding others in there.

The controls are very interactive and can be quite extreme. For example, when programming a down sweep envelope you can often only use the “slow attack” side of the mod source dial, the speed knob no higher than half. You then need to take care to not set the frequency too low if using a large depth setting as it’ll just go straight into sub territory and stay there.

Since I can’t share preset files with you until you get a hub, try replicating these from my screenshots below.

When using the Octo-Nøjs, try experimenting with its volume levels as it has a big impact on how the filter responds, often you’ll need to back the volume off.

Definitely get a hub otherwise you’ll kick yourself when you lose sounds you’ve created.

@BenR24

Edited July 24, 2018 by Quatschmacher

[radiophonic]

@Quatschmacher Cheers for those.  I've already realised that filter settings  on their own are almost meaningless and the settings that feed them are crucial.  The presets I've made sound pretty anemic but fed with the right dirt/octave down, they take off. If I crank them clean, the dirt just makes everything crazy.  I'm totally out of board space now. I'll post a pic of my later today and you'll see my problem.  Replacing the El Capistan with something more compact would make a difference but I don't really want to lose the Sound on Sound.  OTOH I do fancy a Space Echo. One option would be to move the final delay and looper pedals onto my spare Nano+ board since these are only really used for solo meanderings - I could put the TU3 on the end as a killswitch for when all the self-oscillation gets out of hand and just keep all the band-centric pedals on the main board.

[Quatschmacher]

33 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

I've already realised that filter settings  on their own are almost meaningless and the settings that feed them are crucial.

Indeed. The two I’ve sent sound utterly boring on their own but sound amazing with octave and fuzz in parallel running into them. 

[radiophonic]

I've had a good play with this now. 

The big lesson is that the controls are very sensitive. Getting a sweep that doesn't dive into subs but still recovers in time for the next note takes a surprising amount of work. Part of the issue is a re rethink about the parameters. I'm used to a dedicated 'sensitivity' control and a simple range that goes from 0 - 100%. Splitting the range into Up/Down/Notch means that the adjustment becomes very fine. Presets are therefore essential I think. This is not like the basic filters I've used before, that's for sure. I tried the presets that @Quatschmacher screenshotted up-thread and that was pretty instructive. Neither sounded right initially, but minute tweaks to them yielded major results. I'm assuming minor differences in the input signal cause very large nonlinearities in the filtering. For starters, I've found that I need to back off the gated fuzz - I generally run it at 3 O'Clock into the harmoniser, but this is way too much for the filter. I'm still trying to get a convincing deep but slow sweep triggered by the LFO though. I can hear it in my head - and indeed on an album by a band I've been asked to try out for - it'd be cool to be able to show up and recreate the intro to their album since they rarely attempt this live and always compromise when they do. I'm sure it's doable though.

The major negatives are that to really get the most out of this I think the hub is going to be essential. However, given that the basic pedal is less than 150 quid, it seems churlish to gripe. Nothing at that price point gives you presets and this at least gives you a couple. Those micro-buttons are a non-starter live though.  You'd have to have your sound dialed in before stage time since there's no way you could get away with on the fly adjustment. The other thing I don't like is that the pedal is small for it's feature set. I think the tap tempo would be pretty useful on the LFO settings but the switches are just too close together for me to get an accurate tap - I guess this is one exception to the previous comment though, in that the rate control is easily tweaked. 

Overall: Very versatile if a little fiddly to dial in. Possibly not as fat and resonant sounding as some old-skool 'single function' filters either.  I'd interested in hearing something like an an Enigma now and I'm beginning to see why some people on here have large filter collections. They seem to generate the same obsessive questing in bassists that drive pedals do for some guitar players.