3 Bolt Necks vs. The Rest of The World

[BreadBin]

More = better.

😀

[Beedster]

They're not bolts, they're screws (x 4) on most Fenders, screws (x 2) and bolts (x 1) on the Fenders in question?

[bigjohn]

On 22/06/2018 at 07:41, Christine said:

The only real problem with bolt on or more accurately screw on necks regardless of how many screws it has is removing them and putting them back on again. I don't care what anyone says it will always stretch the wood fibres where the screw bites some more every time. The Fender 3 point does seem a little odd in that there is a single screw at the back which is the one that gets the most tension put on it by the pull of the strings. Real world though as long as the wood in the neck screw holes is still sound you should have no problem with 3 or 4

Just do what I do and put a spot of wood glue on the screw each time you put it back in. Eventually you're screwing into a solid PVA thread not wood fibre. 

To be honest though, I have a mate who gigs with a 60s telecaster and mostly travels by motorbike. He removes the neck of it regularly and doesn't have any problems. I know it's a telecaster and not a bass like but still. 

 

[FinnDave]

Or you could buy threaded inserts and install them permanently in the neck, then neck really is a bolt-on, metal to metal rather than wood screws slowly chewing their way through the neck. I'm sure I read an article about doing that on Stew Mac's site some years ago, but can't find it there now, so I might have dreamt it!

[Christine]

2 hours ago, bigjohn said:

Just do what I do and put a spot of wood glue on the screw each time you put it back in. Eventually you're screwing into a solid PVA thread not wood fibre. 

To be honest though, I have a mate who gigs with a 60s telecaster and mostly travels by motorbike. He removes the neck of it regularly and doesn't have any problems. I know it's a telecaster and not a bass like but still. 

 

On the occasions I've made a bolt on neck I use stainless tee nuts under the fretboard and then use Allen screws to tighten them

[bigjohn]

20 hours ago, Christine said:

On the occasions I've made a bolt on neck I use stainless tee nuts under the fretboard and then use Allen screws to tighten them

Well that's certainly one way of sorting it!

Bit easier to use a bit of PVA though than to retrofit steel into a neck. 

 

[SpondonBassed]

27 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Well that's certainly one way of sorting it!

Bit easier to use a bit of PVA though than to retrofit steel into a neck. 

 

Hmmm.

So you'd be okay with, say, an aircraft fitter using Araldite with a bolt instead of owning up to stripping a thread?

It's a good bodge at best.  Enjoy your next flight.

Edited June 24, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[Graham]

22 hours ago, FinnDave said:

Or you could buy threaded inserts and install them permanently in the neck, then neck really is a bolt-on, metal to metal rather than wood screws slowly chewing their way through the neck. I'm sure I read an article about doing that on Stew Mac's site some years ago, but can't find it there now, so I might have dreamt it!

That's how I always assumed bolt-ons were made, do most basses not use inserts?

[BreadBin]

8 minutes ago, Graham said:

That's how I always assumed bolt-ons were made, do most basses not use inserts?

Nope, mostly wood screws straight into the neck.

[lurksalot]

3 minutes ago, BreadBin said:

Nope, mostly wood screws straight into the neck.

That's why it amazes me that on some instruments you have to take the neck off to adjust them , it is just asking for issues 

[SpondonBassed]

3 hours ago, lurksalot said:

That's why it amazes me that on some instruments you have to take the neck off to adjust them , it is just asking for issues 

I found that interesting too.

Back in the day there might have been fewer DIY enthusiasts willing to risk damaging an expensive instrument though.  If the work is done by a craftsman, it's not really a problem.  Drilling out worn thread and plugging with dowel wood and adhesive appropriate to the neck will restore the parent wood so that a new and correctly sized hole can be bored and re-cut for the screw thread.

As an aside; the question of whether screw or bolt is the appropriate term is an unnecessary distraction since you can have machine screws that have bolt like characteristics and bolts that have screw characteristics (such as a tapered thread).  As long as it is the correct fastener for the application at hand, you can call it a doofer for all I care.

As an engineer, it pleases me to see thread inserts used on modern builds.  It might leave a sense of distaste in woodworkers who see woodwork and metalwork as being mutually exclusive but it is a solid engineering principle.  I wouldn't criticise anyone for retrofitting thread inserts to a vintage neck and bolting it down if they aren't bothered about originality but they still want to be able to do frequent truss rod adjustments.

Edited June 24, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[Roger2611]

Music Man have used 3, 4 and 6 screw fitting for the Stingray over the years, all remain desirable so I can't see it really matters if the bass is accurately built 

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

Are there many manufacturers that continue to use a three bolt system on basses? Atelier Z do obviously.

[White Cloud]

The combination of a tight neck pocket and aligned three screw fixing is absolutely structurally sound.

[bigjohn]

On 24/06/2018 at 12:23, SpondonBassed said:

Hmmm.

So you'd be okay with, say, an aircraft fitter using Araldite with a bolt instead of owning up to stripping a thread?

It's a good bodge at best.  Enjoy your next flight.

Lol.

I'm not talking about stripping threads, I'm talking about putting PVA on screw tips so over time it makes a more solid thread than the wood alone. Which is a good idea when the wood alone does a perfectly good job. It also takes seconds, is non-invasive and very low risk, no matter what your woodworking skill-set, whereas retrofitting recessed nuts into a neck heel is a completely different thing. 

I'd also suggest that if you're taking the neck off instruments that often in order to simply adjust them, then there's something else wrong other than a lack of steel thead for the heel screws!

 

   

 

 

 

[SpondonBassed]

3 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Lol.

I'm not talking about stripping threads, I'm talking about putting PVA on screw tips so over time it makes a more solid thread than the wood alone. Which is a good idea when the wood alone does a perfectly good job. It also takes seconds, is non-invasive and very low risk, no matter what your woodworking skill-set, whereas retrofitting recessed nuts into a neck heel is a completely different thing. 

I'd also suggest that if you're taking the neck off instruments that often in order to simply adjust them, then there's something else wrong other than a lack of steel thead for the heel screws!

 

   

 

 

 

Fair enough.

Another way of increasing the longevity of the female thread is to apply wax to the male thread before each assembly.  This is the method I have witnessed most and the one I'd have a personal preference for.

This works for any number of bolts.

To address the OP, if a vintage instrument has survived 'til now with a three bolt neck, I'd say the job's a good 'un.

[Count Bassy]

In theory a three bolt neck should be more stable in the same way as a three legged stool is (three points will always lie on a plane).  - as long as there are no lumps in the wood work. BUt then again if there are no lumps in the wook work a 4,5, or 6 bolt set up should be perfectly adequate as well.

 

[Ghost_Bass]

Er... hummm...

 

...carry on.  as you were.

[BreadBin]

8 minutes ago, Ghost_Bass said:

Er... hummm...

Show off!

[Ghost_Bass]

Just now, BreadBin said:

Show off!

How's that even possible? There are no bolts to show...

 

😂🤣

[SpondonBassed]

5 hours ago, Ghost_Bass said:

Er... hummm...

 

...carry on.  as you were.

Hahahaha!  Three boltless necks.

[josie]

6 hours ago, Count Bassy said:

In theory a three bolt neck should be more stable in the same way as a three legged stool is (three points will always lie on a plane).  - as long as there are no lumps in the wood work. BUt then again if there are no lumps in the wook work a 4,5, or 6 bolt set up should be perfectly adequate as well.

 

My GMR 5 has 5 and my GMR 4 has 4, all slightly offset so no two are on the same grain-line of the wood of the neck, so distributing the strain. My Aerodyne Jazz has four set in a square (and is also stable as a rock).

Stability - this is OT, but most spinning wheel designs have three legs so they would be stable on the uneven floors where they were most often used. German "castle" wheels have four legs, suggesting that typical German homes had level floors centuries before the rest of Europe and North America.

I'm sure you really wanted to know that 🙂

[lurksalot]

8 hours ago, josie said:

..........German "castle" wheels have four legs, suggesting that typical German homes had level floors centuries before the rest of Europe and North America.

Or that the Germans  invented beer mats ! 

[SpondonBassed]

15 hours ago, Count Bassy said:

In theory a three bolt neck should be more stable in the same way as a three legged stool is (three points will always lie on a plane).  - as long as there are no lumps in the wood work. BUt then again if there are no lumps in the wook work a 4,5, or 6 bolt set up should be perfectly adequate as well.

 

The milking parlour stool is a very good example of what you're trying to say.  Three legs good, four legs bad.

This is a sound engineering principle but it does not apply to this situation.  An accurately cut neck pocket made for a the neck root giving you a push fit is what makes the joint strong.  The screws are only there to keep the mating surfaces in close contact.  If there are lumps in the woodwork, there is something very wrong.  If a shim job is badly executed it can compromise the contact surface area too.

In those cases, no number of screws or bolts (even using thread inserts) will help.  You can't polish a turd.  You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

 

8 hours ago, josie said:

Stability - this is OT, but most spinning wheel designs have three legs so they would be stable on the uneven floors where they were most often used. German "castle" wheels have four legs, suggesting that typical German homes had level floors centuries before the rest of Europe and North America. 🙂

Again, three legs good, four legs bad.  It works for objects that need stability on uneven surfaces but it does not carry across to the neck joint.

What makes the neck joint work is the large surface area where the two pieces meet.  The screws (bolts if you like) simply hold the two pieces in contact.

Edited June 27, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[drTStingray]

The original three bolt necks from the mid/late 70s (Fender and Musicman) were originally provided to allow the neck tilt system to be incorporated - a metal shim fitted in the neck pocket which allowed adjustment of the tilt angle of the neck through a little hole in the neck plate. Whilst many people have no problems with their basses from this era issues are not unheard of - such as the ski ramp effect over the neck pocket (upper end of fretboard). 

However this system was dropped by both Fender and Musicman after a few years, replaced by a four bolt system. Maybe there were issues maybe it was simply cheaper to manufacture and maybe people didn't use the 3 bolt tilt adjustment facility - I certainly didn't with mine. 

However consider the forces involved and what the bolts are meant to achieve - presumably a strong mechanical joint to resist damage by accidental means, assist in transferring resonance and to prevent shifting. In this context a 3 bolt joint is probably not the best - it's a bit like cars cornering - is a Reliant Robin as stable as say a Mini - the former will lift a rear wheel much sooner than the latter (similar with rotational forces on a neck).

Six bolts is intended to prevent shifting in almost any circumstance. 

Im guessing any use of three bolt necks in modern basses is largely aesthetic, to match a design of the mid/late 70s rather than anything else - do even the Fenders have the tilt mechanism in re-issues? Interestingly from the back that Jerry Barnes Bass looks very similar to Bernard Edwards' Musicman - the front looks Fender Jazz. 

Edited June 27, 2018 by drTStingray