3 Bolt Necks vs. The Rest of The World

[Geek99]

On 22/06/2018 at 23:26, Norris said:

Three is the magic number - or at least that's what De La Soul would have you believe 

There is more than three of them so what the f£&k do they know ?

[BigRedX]

58 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

The original three bolt necks from the mid/late 70s (Fender and Musicman) were originally provided to allow the neck tilt system to be incorporated - a metal shim fitted in the neck pocket which allowed adjustment of the tilt angle of the neck through a little hole in the neck plate. Whilst many people have no problems with their basses from this era issues are not unheard of - such as the ski ramp effect over the neck pocket (upper end of fretboard). 

However this system was dropped by both Fender and Musicman after a few years, replaced by a four bolt system. Maybe there were issues maybe it was simply cheaper to manufacture and maybe people didn't use the 3 bolt tilt adjustment facility - I certainly didn't with mine. 

However consider the forces involved and what the bolts are meant to achieve - presumably a strong mechanical joint to resist damage by accidental means, assist in transferring resonance and to prevent shifting. In this context a 3 bolt joint is probably not the best - it's a bit like cars cornering - is a Reliant Robin as stable as say a Mini - the former will lift a rear wheel much sooner than the latter (similar with rotational forces on a neck).

Six bolts is intended to prevent shifting in almost any circumstance. 

Im guessing any use of three bolt necks in modern basses is largely aesthetic, to match a design of the mid/late 70s rather than anything else - do even the Fenders have the tilt mechanism in re-issues? Interestingly from the back that Jerry Barnes Bass looks very similar to Bernard Edwards' Musicman - the front looks Fender Jazz. 

If you'd read my post right at the beginning of this thread you'd know that the three bolt micro-tilt system was dropped because Fender's engineering practices and quality control did not allow the mechanism to be installed in such a way that let it to operate as intended without any unwanted side effects.

If the neck pocket and heel of the neck have been machined properly a single bolt would be all that is required. It the mating surfaces are flat so that there is 100% contact and the neck is a snug fit in the pocket, the bolt is only there to hold the two parts together when under the tension of the strings and even then much of the force exerted on the joint will be tending to pull the neck tighter into the pocket. The bolt is only there counteract the lifting action of the string pull.

Edited June 27, 2018 by BigRedX

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, drTStingray said:

In this context a 3 bolt joint is probably not the best - it's a bit like cars cornering

In this context it makes no difference.  I agree however that three wheeled cars fall over more often than four wheeled ones.

Edited June 27, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[drTStingray]

5 hours ago, BigRedX said:

If you'd read my post right at the beginning of this thread you'd know that the three bolt micro-tilt system was dropped because Fender's engineering practices and quality control did not allow the mechanism to be installed in such a way that let it to operate as intended without any unwanted side effects.

If the neck pocket and heel of the neck have been machined properly a single bolt would be all that is required. It the mating surfaces are flat so that there is 100% contact and the neck is a snug fit in the pocket, the bolt is only there to hold the two parts together when under the tension of the strings and even then much of the force exerted on the joint will be tending to pull the neck tighter into the pocket. The bolt is only there counteract the lifting action of the string pull.

I did read it but wasn't totally clear that was a documented reason or even if it was, was actually the real reason - if it was to save money they'd hardly have said so.

Also Musicman ceased to use the 3 bolt system around 1979 - I'm not sure that was for the same reason although there were manufacturing issues of one sort or another at CLF. 

I'm not sure what the levels of acceptability or adequacy you are judging the performance of a three bolt system but clearly as virtually no manufacturers currently use it either you are overlooking some factors or the whole industry is wasting money on unnecessary neck connections. So I think you're probably wrong dependant on the definition of adequacy. 

If one of my six bolt Musicman basses happened to be fallen on by some weighty object I would feel more comfortable the neck joint wouldn't be damaged  compared to a 3 bolt one. I would also expect even a neck and neck pocket with minor imperfections in the wood surfaces to 'mate' when screwed together. More screws would probably improve this. 

[thepurpleblob]

It always worries me in sales of vintage Fenders and the like when people take off the neck to show the matching serial numbers. 

If I was buying it, I think I'd be a lot happier if they left it alone!!

[LewisK1975]

12 minutes ago, thepurpleblob said:

It always worries me in sales of vintage Fenders and the like when people take off the neck to show the matching serial numbers. 

If I was buying it, I think I'd be a lot happier if they left it alone!!

They do it to prove it's legit, folks won't spend thousands without the proof...

I also think it's highly unlikely that there are ANY vintage Fenders in existence today, that have never been taken apart...

YMMV!

 

[thepurpleblob]

11 minutes ago, LewisK1975 said:

They do it to prove it's legit, folks won't spend thousands without the proof...

I also think it's highly unlikely that there are ANY vintage Fenders in existence today, that have never been taken apart...

YMMV!

 

Well... I suppose I'm not their target market in the first place 😄

[BigRedX]

17 hours ago, drTStingray said:

I did read it but wasn't totally clear that was a documented reason or even if it was, was actually the real reason - if it was to save money they'd hardly have said so.

Also Musicman ceased to use the 3 bolt system around 1979 - I'm not sure that was for the same reason although there were manufacturing issues of one sort or another at CLF. 

I'm not sure what the levels of acceptability or adequacy you are judging the performance of a three bolt system but clearly as virtually no manufacturers currently use it either you are overlooking some factors or the whole industry is wasting money on unnecessary neck connections. So I think you're probably wrong dependant on the definition of adequacy. 

If one of my six bolt Musicman basses happened to be fallen on by some weighty object I would feel more comfortable the neck joint wouldn't be damaged  compared to a 3 bolt one. I would also expect even a neck and neck pocket with minor imperfections in the wood surfaces to 'mate' when screwed together. More screws would probably improve this. 

From what I've read the 3-bolt micro-tilt system was originally developed to be used on Fender's acoustic guitar range where tilting the neck was the easiest user-friendly method of changing the action. For some reason it was decided to also apply it to the solid bodied guitar range, despite the fact that there should have been enough adjustment available at the bridge to make this unnecessary. It didn't actually get phased out at Fender until the early 80s, and I suspect that mostly due to fact that Fender was undergoing massive upheavals in management and trying to get the business back on track, which at the time meant re-creating instruments of the pre-CBS "glory days" and getting rid of most of the features developed during the 70s of which the 3-bolt neck was one.

The reason for only 3 bolts on the micro-tilt system is that it is easier to adjust. You only need to slacken off the single bolt, the neck then pivots on the other two bolts while you adjust the micro-tilt, and when the adjustment has been made tighten up the single bolt again. In theory quick and easy. 

In practice it was really a solution in need of a problem. There should have been enough vertical travel in the saddles to allow for all the action adjustments required, and even if there wasn't, it's not too big a deal to take the neck off and add a shim.