Drummer dilemma

[Mickeyboro]

I play in a club band where the material is nearly all 60s/70s classics. Not much for a bass player to chew on, but regular work.

Recently we have been playing everything a shade too fast. The effect is cumulative, so that by the second set some songs are ridiculously speedy (ever heard the Ramones doing Spirit in the Sky?)...

i have remarked on this in rehearsal, and last night after the third song I had a word with the drummer to rein it back a bit. At the end of the evening he confronted me, clearly very angry, and told me I had wrecked the show for him and that this should never be discussed at a gig. The tempos had improved but he managed to miss some cues, etc, so my comment had some effect, even if his confidence was shot.

So how do I approach this at the next rehearsal? How do you work with a drummer with that attitude, or is he being reasonable...?

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Mickeyboro
Spelling

[lowdowner]

I'm a drummer and have the same kind of conversations in my band regularly. 

I found that the most positive messages from band members usually went along the lines of "Look, the timing of the band belongs to *you* as the drummer, YOU have your foot on the accelerator and brake and how fast we go is completely your domain. However, we can't all play as fast as you can so we need to be able to signal that we need it to go slower."

The next thing we did was have several practice sessions where we just concentrate on 'messaging' i.e. playing our usual tracks but getting different members of the band to signal a slowing down or speeding up and listening to the drummer drive the pace from that. It's like a game where the drummer is in control and different band members make 'speed up' or 'slow down' signals. We always over-emphasise the speed change so that all band members can clearly agree that it has sped up or slowed down. It's a lot of fun as a drummer because you actually feel like the driver in terms of speed.

If the drummer is a reasonable person they'll see how important it is to practice this messaging as much as any other aspect of practising. By making it a 'game' and reassuring them that they are always in controls, it works well.

You have to be honest with yourselves though that you are prepared to trust the drummer with the tempo setting (not paying lip service and ignoring them!) - respect must work both ways.

We drummers need nurturing and ego-stroking. Otherwise we throw our toys out of the pram and have tantrums, but then we often get the blame when actually *nobody* is working as a team member.

david

[ezbass]

I’ve had this. A band I was in used to do Rhythm Stick, the drummer would count it correctly but then speed up by 10-20 bpm. One night I just stopped and said, “No!” or words to that effect. My point was that I ran out of talent at that speed, but he still had the hump. You can only take this head on IMO, the rest of the band being united with you helps though. Good luck.

[Akio Dāku]

I'd just bring it up straight away at the start of the next rehearsal. Say something like; "I feel like we're constantly rushing as a band, I might be wrong but could we try rehearsing to a click for a few weeks? Just so we can lock our tempos down together." Then your not singling anyone out and the click will objectively reveal if anyone's rushing without you saying a word.

[lowdowner]

7 minutes ago, Akio Dāku said:

I'd just bring it up straight away at the start of the next rehearsal. Say something like; "I feel like we're constantly rushing as a band, I might be wrong but could we try rehearsing to a click for a few weeks? Just so we can lock our tempos down together." Then your not singling anyone out and the click will objectively reveal if anyone's rushing without you saying a word.

This is a good idea - sometimes the drummer isn't pushing the tempo and they are following someone else who's driving it forward faster and faster. It's worth baring in mind that sometimes drummers are forced to follow to avoid a car crash.

Playing to click is a separate skill though and if the drummer hasn't done this much before it may take a while before they're up to speed so don't expect miracles on day 1!

[PaulWarning]

I have had this problem occasionally, I just say to the drummer "I'm not good enough to play this song at this speed" usually does the trick.

But adrenaline kicks in and a  lot of bands play faster live, listen to live albums, they do play faster than studio versions of the same songs

[lowdowner]

5 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I have had this problem occasionally, I just say to the drummer "I'm not good enough to play this song at this speed" usually does the trick.

But adrenaline kicks in and a  lot of bands play faster live, listen to live albums, they do play faster than studio versions of the same songs

This is true, which is why it's better to always play songs 10-15% slower when practising - the speed up then results in the right tempo in performance

[T-Bay]

12 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I have had this problem occasionally, I just say to the drummer "I'm not good enough to play this song at this speed" usually does the trick.

But adrenaline kicks in and a  lot of bands play faster live, listen to live albums, they do play faster than studio versions of the same songs

This is us every time. There are points when my fingers feel like they are melting but luckily we have a drummer with a superb ear who will pick if anyone is struggling and back it off a bit. A rare talent I fear.

[chris_b]

So I guess you rehearsed the set at a tempo which was accepted as OK by everyone? If the drummer has been unilaterally pushing the tempos up a notch or two he has an "issue" which should be fixed. He's in the wrong and if someone (you) reminds him that every thing's too fast he can't complain.

Is your drummer saying that problems can't be discussed on a gig? The drummer on my gig last night had a go at the band after about 3 numbers for being too loud. We were and there was no argument, we all turned down. If this guy can't handle a simple change on the fly like playing a number slower he should be ashamed.

I don't agree with the "rehearse songs slower, because the drummer always plays them faster on the gig", idea. Rehearse the songs the way you want to gig them. Then play them exactly the same on the gig. That's what you rehearsed. . . that's what you intended, so don't play something different on the gig, just because one of the band doesn't/can't follow the script.

[Elfrasho]

It's one of the main jobs of the drummer, keeping tempo! If he's not doing it right, then he's not doing his job very well!

 

Tell him that. See how that goes down. 😅 

[lowdowner]

7 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I don't agree with the "rehearse songs slower, because the drummer always plays them faster on the gig", idea. Rehearse the songs the way you want to gig them. Then play them exactly the same on the gig. That's what you rehearsed. . . that's what you intended, so don't play something different on the gig, just because one of the band doesn't/can't follow the script.

I respectfully disagree with this. All I can say is that it worked for our band because the 'adrenaline speed up' is human nature for many of us and we're not all perfect or talented enough to play at exactly the same tempo regardless of whether we're rehearsing or performing. We're all different and our heads work in different ways - we just need to find what works for each of us

[BreadBin]

Recording the gigs and playing back afterwards can be a useful tool - sometimes people don't realise quite how fast they are playing. 

[PaulWarning]

22 minutes ago, BreadBin said:

Recording the gigs and playing back afterwards can be a useful tool - sometimes people don't realise quite how fast they are playing. 

I'm always surprised how fast we play live, no bad thing for a punk band 

[gjones]

I used to play in a band with a drummer who speeded stuff up to a ridiculous extent. Even when I counted him in he would come in at his own superfast tempo. The rest of the band told him that, playing the songs at that ridiculous speed, made it difficult for the singer to get the words in but his stock answer was, 'I felt it needed a bit more energy'. Even though the band all really liked him, he had to go.

[Linus27]

Our drummer is a nightmare. He can play for sure but is the opinion that it's ok to just blag it and make it up as nobody will notice. He doesn't bother to learn the songs properly, his playing is sloppy, he constantly misses intros and endings and plays the songs different every gig. Worst of all, he follows the vocals so when he can't hear them or mishears them, he gets lost so just makes the drums up which is usually playing a bang bang beat on the bass drum and high hat until he knows where he is. So you can imagine this totally ruins thd dynamic and feel of the song.When he does screw up, which is every gig, he blames everyone else. So annoying.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Linus27

[Wolverinebass]

2 hours ago, Linus27 said:

Our drummer is a nightmare. He can play for sure but is the opinion that it's ok to just blag it and make it up as nobody will notice. He doesn't bother to learn the songs properly, his playing is sloppy, he constantly misses intros and endings and plays the songs different every gig. Worst of all, he follows the vocals so when he can't hear them or mishears them, he gets lost so just makes the drums up which is usually playing a bang bang beat on the bass drum and high hat until he knows where he is. So you can imagine this totallybruins thd dynamic and feel of the song.When he does pink torpedo up, which is every gig, he blames everyone else. So annoying.

Sack him and get someone better. Nobody needs to put up with that.

[BreadBin]

2 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

Sack him and get someone better. Nobody needs to put up with that.

Agreed, he sounds like a twonk. 

[lowdowner]

16 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

Sack him and get someone better. Nobody needs to put up with that.

+1 here! 

 

[Dad3353]

3 hours ago, Linus27 said:

Our bloke behind the drum set is a nightmare. He can play for sure but is the opinion that it's ok to just blag it and make it up as nobody will notice. He doesn't bother to learn the songs properly, his playing is sloppy, he constantly misses intros and endings and plays the songs different every gig. Worst of all, he follows the vocals so when he can't hear them or mishears them, he gets lost so just makes the drums up which is usually playing a bang bang beat on the bass drum and high hat until he knows where he is. So you can imagine this totallybruins thd dynamic and feel of the song.When he does pink torpedo up, which is every gig, he blames everyone else. So annoying.

Fixed. 

... and ...

Sack him and get someone better. Nobody needs to put up with that.

[Linus27]

45 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

Sack him and get someone better. Nobody needs to put up with that.

Yeah, it is beginning to start to annoy us. The problem is we have 2 to 4 gigs a weekend, every weekend for the rest of the year so we have comitment. Still, I think something will eventually break and force the situation eventually. I no longer support him and carry him through gigs and just let him screw up on his own which the others are noticing more now and commenting.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Linus27

[thepurpleblob]

Playing too fast / too slow, too loud / too quiet and so on... it's the same thing as playing the wrong notes as it's doing it wrong. If you're doing it wrong (and we ALL do) and somebody points it out to you, you say "thanks" or have a polite discussion and sort it out. A musician who can't do that is a bit of an derrière and a liability. It actually IS a team sport.

[Woodinblack]

We always play too fast, the drummer admits he does and we put effort to slow things down. We have a flashy light on the iPad, which sometimes helps. We have been working on the songs and some have slowed down a lot. 

If we feel it is too fast we slag off the drummer, tell him he is useless and ruining everything, and he calls us rude names and slags off our playing, and then we laugh about it and have a drink. Then we work on the speed.

[skidder652003]

19 hours ago, Mickeyboro said:

At the end of the evening he confronted me, clearly very angry, and told me I had wrecked the show for him and that this should never be discussed at a gig.

can't take constructive criticism? Not good!

Edited June 25, 2018 by skidder652003

[PawelG]

I was lucky enough to be able to play with a perfect drummer. Solid, groovy, articulate... He’s fantastic at any kind of music. He’s got lots of experience with a big band but also lots of pop, rock, gospel, funk, hip-hop etc. Unfortunately, he lives in a different country than me so we can’t play in a band together. That sucks for me, because I am convinced a drummer like that only happens once in a lifetime...

I wish for every bass player to play at least once with a drummer like that. Puts things into perspective. The band automatically sounds super tight when the drummer knows what to do.

Edited June 24, 2018 by PawelG

[BrunoBass]

Our man who hits drums has difficulty playing in the correct tempo, he always plays slightly too slow, which makes everything drag. Even the songs that start with bass, I’ll lead off at the correct speed but when he comes in he’ll be too slow which just kills the momentum. Also he has a tendency to speed up during a drum fill, so that by the time we hit the next bar he’s slightly ahead of everyone else. Very annoying.