Help required with... well, quite a bit of it!

[Art]

Hello all, 

I joined this bass forum today in the hope that someone can help me. I've been playing for years but never learned any theory, until now.

I'm trying to learn my scales, arpeggios, pentatonics etc... I am putting in HOURS every day and have been doing this now for a around 3 to 4 months. I am focusing on major and minor scales at the moment, and trying to 'see' the patterns all over the neck but I am seemingly learning nothing. 

I will endeavour to explain, it is hard to express succinctly. 

I am trying to understand the intervals, I am trying to name the notes as I play them, I am trying to learn the differing patterns all over the neck but 'understanding' is evading me. I understand how chords are made, I understand intervals, I understand keys and even modes to a degree but I am finding it so hard to 'see' the patterns needed when playing with others. I watch the two guitarists in our band for example and they just effortlessly move from chord to chord soloing and never playing a bum note... It seems that this 'seeing' of the intervals required to solo (or creatively bass fill) over changing chords is COMPLETELY evading my knowledge. 
I try to play along to online resources, like bass backing tracks and USE the knowledge I've gained but even though the patterns are there in my head, I am still hitting notes that obviously dont fit!  Then a minor will hit (in real life or a backing track) that I haven't practised enough and poof, I'm lost completely and have to stick to root, fifth, and octave! 'Squares anyone?'

What I'm frustrated with here is the hours and hours I'm putting in to learn something that almost all other musicians I know (and have ever met) seem to almost instinctively 'know'. They know where to play bass fills, almost flowingly naturally and guitarists as mentioned have this ability to just 'solo' without even knowing whether chords are minor or major. Our lead guitarist as a real life example here knows NOTHING of music theory but he can solo over anything. He doesn't know what intervals he's playing, he just somehow 'knows' where he can play... How is that knowledge gained? 

I've never been able to do this and I have to confess have been playing for years. 

Am I simply just not working hard enough at this? After years of 'playing' should I not just be able to absorb this knowledge easily? 

My apologies, this doesn't read very well but it's hard to explain my frustrations. 

What I want to be able to do ultimately, is be told what key a song is in and just 'know' where I can play to create decent bass fills that fit the song. I want to 'see' the intervals and shapes that almost everyone else can already see. 

Any advice would be very appreciated, thank you 

Art

[Geek99]

@Art

it reads fine and I have been there, bought the t-shirt, worn the t-shirt, washed the t-shirt  (repeat) ... and then finally thrown away that t-shirt.

Very few people are lucky enough to be a natural.I'm not, its in my family, but I didn't get that gene. 

 

So, there's two schools of thought: 

1. play songs, lots of songs and it will all work out magically

2. Learn lots of theory until you've pretty much killed the pleasure out of the whole thing and it will all work out magically

 

Lots of popcorn has been eaten watching the factions all over the internet arguing all about this. Which way is better etc. 

 

I would suggest that there is nothing wrong with knowing scales and intervals. It all helps understand what is going on, and why things work. And why things don't. And if you're lucky you will realise that some things that shouldn't work do sound good anyway. 

So, I advise a middle route: stop with the frenetic theory study and take some time to learn a few songs, by ear, using your intervals. Try and move them up a key and down, work out new fingerings in other places, not for nothing is anywhere above fret five or so known as the dusty end. Then use your theory knowledge to work out what scales are in use and why they work over those chords. Then you will start to build up the aural tool box that you seek. I think that in trying to see the patterns, you're missing the point. Its about finding the notes on the fretboard, not learning a pattern. I bought an iphone app that tests me on notes and their locations.

Looking for patterns is a crutch, and I leant on it for too long. 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Geek99

[Art]

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate your time! 

It's nice to see you say 'you've been there' - that meant a lot because I've certainly never met anyone else in that position. (or maybe no one else who would admit it?)

Over the years I've been playing I have learned hundreds of songs but that knowledge is still evading me. I have been waiting on that 'magical moment' for a very long time but it's almost like theres just something; even psychological, thats stopping that info from emerging and making sense to me. 

I look at the LIMITLESS possibilities of scales and chords and then add to that all the additional sus chords for example, the changes in music theory like the harmonic and melodic minor (just because it didnt work for the composers, so they changed it!!!) and my mind just get so confused and I wonder how I will ever untangle this web. 

I learn songs and challenge myself to 'name that key' and when I am POSITIVE I am right I look it up and I am very wrong! I wonder 'why', 'how' did I get that wrong... ie the song works over a constant 'a' note so that MUST be the root and the minor scale notes fit over it... it MUST be A minor!! Oh.. It's e minor!  Rinse repeat.

I just dont know what it is i'm not seeing, not grasping and I have no idea where to turn for the answers. 

I'm not a quitter, but I've never had to learn anything more complex in my entire life. 

Any other help would be appreciated, 

Thanks

Art

 

[Frank Blank]

I've been playing for thirty years and never learnt any theory whatsoever until a few months back when I started lessons. I am now doing the same as you, learning scales and arpeggios. These have been available in a variety of forms for years, obviously, but I think, personally, I need the motivation of a teacher otherwise I feel kinda overwhelmed by the amount there is to learn potentially. Also my teacher allows me to decide what direction the lessons take and I'm finding I'm applying it in my writing. I can wholeheartedly recommend being taught regardless of how long you've been playing, it's been a real eye opener for me. 

[TKenrick]

This is definitely something that's difficult to articulate on a message board (both for the OP and those who respond). These are some things that jumped out at me:

On 25/06/2018 at 11:02, Art said:

I'm trying to learn my scales, arpeggios, pentatonics etc... I am putting in HOURS every day and have been doing this now for a around 3 to 4 months. I am focusing on major and minor scales at the moment, and trying to 'see' the patterns all over the neck but I am seemingly learning nothing. 

Can you elaborate on how you're going about learning these things? That might help to shed some light on why things haven't fallen into place yet.

On 25/06/2018 at 11:02, Art said:

What I want to be able to do ultimately, is be told what key a song is in and just 'know' where I can play to create decent bass fills that fit the song. I want to 'see' the intervals and shapes that almost everyone else can already see.

As someone who has focused a lot of time and effort on learning music theory and thinking about musical concepts, I'd strongly suggest abandoning your quest to see things and instead focus on being able to hear them. Theory is a great tool, but it's a terrible master. It's a wonderful device for explaining musical ideas and communicating with other musicians, but it shouldn't be the primary resource that you use for playing and improvising.

To put it another way, have you ever been to a theory concert?

Learn intervals by ear, learn chord tones all over the fretboard, transcribe players that you love. Forget scales for a while, concentrate on intervals and then triads instead.

[6feet7]

On 25/06/2018 at 12:04, Geek99 said:

I have been there, bought the t-shirt, worn the t-shirt, washed the t-shirt  (repeat) ... and then finally thrown away that t-shirt.

I played guitar for 30 years and have been playing bass for about 15 years and have never got it. I've had lessons. Read books. Gone online. Bought 'better' basses. I'm still a root, 5th octave player who throws in a pentatonic every now and then. 

I think the understanding music part of the brain is related to language and maths, and I (even though I'm 1/2 'foreign') can hardly speak a word of another language and had extra maths every Saturday morning throughout my school days (I'm not bad now, but I'm not a natural). But, I play in two bands. We get paid gigs and I'm complemented on my playing by the rest of the band (though of course, they could be sh*t too and just don't  recognise if I'm good or bad). Learn as much as you can, if you can, but don't let it get in the way of enjoying playing.

[Geek99]

15 hours ago, TKenrick said:

This is definitely something that's difficult to articulate on a message board (both for the OP and those who respond). These are some things that jumped out at me:

Can you elaborate on how you're going about learning these things? That might help to shed some light on why things haven't fallen into place yet.

As someone who has focused a lot of time and effort on learning music theory and thinking about musical concepts, I'd strongly suggest abandoning your quest to see things and instead focus on being able to hear them. Theory is a great tool, but it's a terrible master. It's a wonderful device for explaining musical ideas and communicating with other musicians, but it shouldn't be the primary resource that you use for playing and improvising.

To put it another way, have you ever been to a theory concert?

Learn intervals by ear, learn chord tones all over the fretboard, transcribe players that you love. Forget scales for a while, concentrate on intervals and then triads instead.

@Art

this is truth.

 

i take one thing from this, get a teacher and maybe not stick with the first one you try. 

[Frank Blank]

31 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

i take one thing from this, get a teacher and maybe not stick with the first one you try. 

Absolutely. I tried several before I finally got on with one, I was beginning to think it was me subconsciously rejecting tutors because I didn't want to confront my bad bass playing but in the end I found an excellent tutor and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. This is the important thing, if you put yourself through the ringer with study and theory and aren't enjoying it then there is no point. Playing bass should be a pleasure and if learning theory isn't adding to that pleasure then don't do it. There are plenty of superb, innovative bass players out there who haven't got a clue about such things. Mick Karn for instance didn't know a thing about theory, I once read an interview where he said he knew the open strings were EADG but that was it, he couldn't tell you where a C was, in fact when his band (Japan) rehearsed he would often turn up late and the band had already begun jamming a new song, Mick Karn would look at the title of the song and come up with a bass line to it that the title inspired in him, then sometimes the rest of the band would change the song to fit around his bass line, which sounds like a huge faff but they did this because this untutored player, who didn't know a C from a kipper, wrote exquisite, unique bass lines.

 

[Guest]

Don’t abandon shapes entirely. Whilst it’s good to know the theory behind what you’re playing, it is very important to be able to relate the shape of something you play with the sound it makes. Like it or not, the bass and guitar are played with notes on a grid, often in several different places. This is not like a piano, which has one, and only one, place to sound each note. “Learning” the fingerboard is partly matching up the fret location with the sound. So I can play a G at the open string on the G-string, the 5th fret on the D-string, the 10th fret in the A-string or the 15th fret on the E-string. Notice a pattern? So the fingerboard is geometric and repeats. They are all exactly the same pitch (well, maybe not exact, but that’s for another conversation!), but the different string length and diameter provide a different sound. Whilst it’s great to know that, for example, CEGB is a Cmaj7 arpeggio, it’s just as important to hear the sound it makes, and relate that to the shape on the fretboard. Learning the pitch alone will not give you the tools to play something in the right place to get the sound that you want. 

[Art]

When I first came here I was too embarrassed to be 100% honest. I have been playing for over 30 years and this still evades me. This forum has been a breath of fresh air on an internet that is usually full of complete and utter vileness. I have been a poster and user of internet forums for many many years and I don't remember the last time I actually found some real compassion and help, this forum should be very proud of itself. I think I may well stick around, as I have lots of other musical talents that I know I can use to help others as I have been helped.

A bit more about me, if you will indulge me. 

I've been playing over 30 years, in a very on and off way (I realise of course that this alone doesn't help me learn what I want to know). I have played in 2 pretty successful bands, one for 4 years and the other 6. None of those band members ever suspected that I knew nothing and people from all walks of life and throughout the entire 30 years (often including people I greatly respected) have commented on my bass playing, telling me how much they enjoyed it! (if only they knew huh @6feet7 ) 

I can play almost anything, especially given time to sit and work something out and that has been my entire bass career. I'll work something out rudimentary at the early stages when writing with the band and then go home and in my own time work something nice out. 
I'm so fed up of having to do this and this is why I want to move forward and LEARN where I can play given any chord progression at the time of writing. I so want to be naturally playing sexy fills, rather than having to work them out later, note by note. 

I wanted to quote several of you but my post is already leaning towards tldr territory, so I will just try and ask some more directions based on the advice given.  

It has been mentioned several times here and I have seen it online many times also (scotts bass lessons, talking bass.net etc) learn what the intervals 'sound' like. I cant understand this concept because in my mind its not helping me 'know' where I can play. I can't see a link between the two things (this is hard to articulate too apologies). I know what a 5th sounds like, I am 99% positive I can pick a major and minor 3rd and a 2nd 4th 6th and 7th are all pretty distinct also. Maybe I don't know these as well as I think I do but one thing is for sure. I cannot understand how this helps me? I don't mean to sound disingenuous to the advice, I KNOW 100% it's good advice as I see it and hear it often but as i say, I cant see how it solves my problems. 

Get a bass teacher: Unfortunately, I'm out of work atm with a serious back condition (thanks years of humping band gear :P) and simply can't afford this route. I wish I could because the right person would be able to help me I am sure. 

On 26/06/2018 at 18:18, TKenrick said:

Can you elaborate on how you're going about learning these things? That might help to shed some light on why things haven't fallen into place yet.

Thanks for your time here TKenrick. To elaborate, I started based on advice from Scotts Bass Lessons on the C major scale (I actually started with G Major - seemed to maked more sense to me) all over the neck. From different finger positions. Finger 1, 2 3 etc. This IS actually helping because the more major scales I learn, I am beginning to see the geometric patterns without thinking too much about them, this has taken (if im honest about practice time) 30 mins a day for around a month. I started to speak the 'intervals' to myself as I went (and based on the advice given here and around the internet) hear what they sound like. The thing I think this is doing beyond anything else is making me a faster player AND making me stamp out bad habits, such as turning my fingers into spaghetti trying to jump around the neck. I know you can all relate to that. So this practice time and repositioning of my hand to use correct fingers has been great for many reasons. BUT... I am still not learning what I want, applying it over major chords in the songs my band and I are writing still comes up with bum notes!!  

And this leads me onto one further thing... (how very Columbo of me)

I am actually enjoying playing scales. Really, truthfully... Its (as mentioned above) making me a better player and despite hitting bum notes still I AM learning and moving forward. But its these bum notes I want to talk to you all about. 
They are coming about I am sure from these rules in music that BAFFLE me completely and one of the things that's keeping me from actually understanding the fret board while trying to be creative. The use of borrowed chords, the use of sus chords, the flattened 5th or 7th of a chord... Now let me just explain, I have an understanding of how these are used and why. But when I'm playing with my band members how do I know this is happening when even my band mates are just doing things because they 'sound' right. I know my guitarist knows no theory but he will throw in some beautiful sounding chords that none of us have a clue about. How do 'I' know what it is thats happening? How do I use the knowledge of 'shapes' and all my recently learned knowledge to play over this when I have no idea for example that the chord he is plying has a flattened 6th? 

I am getting to grips fully with the shapes of the major scale all over the neck, and all different keys. Haven't even STARTED on the minor scale yet, there goes another month. But what then? Do I then spend another month on the harminic monor, then another on the melodic, then another on the blues scale... and on and on. 

I really appreciate the advice you have all given, and I apologise for the length and waffley-ness (is that a word? lol) of this post but honestly I dont know where to turn for the answer thats right for me. I hear what your all saying 'in general' and thats to forget learning this way and learn songs and interval sounds etc. But I counter this with the fact that I 'have' learned hundreds of songs, played in many bands and tried to learn along the way, yet somehow this still evades me. 

I'm sorry, I'm speaking in circles now... I won't change it, it's my frustrations laid bare because I know your a decent bunch who will listen. 

Once again, I thank you for your advice and time. And if you read all of this post I think maybe you deserve a medal of some kind. I have much to digest much to think on... Now I'm going to make myself a full member of this forum and start to help out where I know I can... In the recording section. 

Art

 

[Geek99]

👍

[Muzz]

I've never been as comfortable with theory as I'd have liked, despite playing for forty years now, but I'd agree with the poster who's said learning and playing lots of songs (or all sorts of genres) opens up the kinda dry theory with some "Ohhhh, now I get what he did there..." moments, and they're the ones that have stuck.

[Geek99]

@Muzz me i think

[TKenrick]

On 16/07/2018 at 10:52, Art said:

It has been mentioned several times here and I have seen it online many times also (scotts bass lessons, talking bass.net etc) learn what the intervals 'sound' like. I cant understand this concept because in my mind its not helping me 'know' where I can play. I can't see a link between the two things (this is hard to articulate too apologies). I know what a 5th sounds like, I am 99% positive I can pick a major and minor 3rd and a 2nd 4th 6th and 7th are all pretty distinct also. Maybe I don't know these as well as I think I do but one thing is for sure. I cannot understand how this helps me? I don't mean to sound disingenuous to the advice, I KNOW 100% it's good advice as I see it and hear it often but as i say, I cant see how it solves my problems. 

There are lots of things that I’d like to respond to, but this is the most pressing. Trying to explain this is a little like giving swimming lessons over the phone, but I’ll do my best:

Sound comes first. Theory is a great way to explain why certain things work (or don’t work) and put labels on certain sounds, but it happens after the sound.

If you want to be able to play spontaneously, then your ear has to be the primary source of inspiration - the fact is that the conscious, analytical part of our brains that deals with naming notes, scale degrees and interval relationships is too slow to be put in charge of improvising; our subconscious mind has to be allowed to take over and react to whatever is going on musically in the moment.

To frame it a different way: when you have a conversation you probably don’t script everything in advance, nor do you consciously analyse the spelling and grammar of what you’re saying - you’ve done enough talking to know which words will fit together and be appropriate for the topic of conversation. The goal is to become similarly fluent with the way that music sounds.

This is how players who are apparently ‘unschooled’ and have little or no knowledge of music theory can play fluently: they have a firm grasp of how things sound.

In order for that to happen, you need to have a strong connection between your hands and your ears, so you can ‘pre-hear’ ideas before you play them. By becoming more familiar with the sound of different chord types and common chord progressions you’ll develop the ability to instinctively know the sort of thing that will work in a particular musical situation.

A huge part of this is stealing things from your favourite players - learn fills that you like the sound of and then use theory to ‘reverse engineer’ what’s going on; what scale(s) are they using? What chords are those scales being played over?

Doing this puts theory in context and allows you to use your knowledge of theory to understand why things sound good.

 

On 16/07/2018 at 10:52, Art said:

How do 'I' know what it is thats happening? How do I use the knowledge of 'shapes' and all my recently learned knowledge to play over this when I have no idea for example that the chord he is plying has a flattened 6th? 

Either your guitarist needs to write you a chord chart or you need to hear it (the first solution is much more immediate!).

 

On 16/07/2018 at 10:52, Art said:

I am getting to grips fully with the shapes of the major scale all over the neck, and all different keys. Haven't even STARTED on the minor scale yet, there goes another month. But what then? Do I then spend another month on the harminic monor, then another on the melodic, then another on the blues scale... and on and on. 

Getting the fundamentals of the major scale together all over the instrument in different keys to the point where it's completely intuitive is YEARS of work, don't beat yourself for not having got it all down in a month or 2. Don't worry about harmonic and melodic minor scales for now, unless the music that you're making absolutely demands it. 

As I've said before, I'd strongly advise working on arpeggios and chord tones rather than playing scales - much more applicable and easier to digest.

[bassist_lewis]

Music is a BIG topic! Referring to the OP, you say you've been putting in hours for 3-4 months, which is exactly what you should be doing and much respect for putting in the time. But I'll put it like this: you've ONLY been putting in a few hours a day for 3-4 months! To learn a complex skill like playing a piece of wood with strings on it takes years of repetition, focus and reflection.

You say you're struggling to 'understand' the information, I think you are understanding it just fine. As you say, you understand how chords and scales are built. The problem occurs when you play with other people. This is the difference between being able to understand a complex word/phrase and using that phrase/word in a conversation. You have not integrated what you are learning into your 'vocabulary' as it were. To make the theory stuff really useful you have to get it into your subconscious, so you're not thinking about notes and intervals or even licks, you're thinking sound. This takes YEARS of dedicated, conscious practice.

Another thing I picked up on was your comparing yourself to others. This is a guaranteed technique to make you feel s**t and demotivate yourself. Separate the person from the behaviour: the guitarists who play so well and know their fretboard inside out without knowing a drop of theory (I know guys like this also) is not a better person than you, he's just focused on things that you haven't for longer. And remember this: you're playing with these guys!!! If they thought you were crap they wouldn't play with you! Being the worst player in the band is the best place to be because you get to learn the most. Being the best player is boring and frustrating (I teach kids, I know this to be true!).

Stick with what you're doing, vary how you practice, break it down into smaller chunks, reflect on the result (without judgement) and most importantly, stick with it.

Good books on learning and music: The Music Lesson (Victor Wooten); Talent is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else (Geoff Colvin); Make it Stick (Peter C. Brown);The War of Art (Steven Pressfield); Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Musician With (Kenny Werner); Drive:The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us (Daniel H. Pink); The Talent Code: Greatness isn't Born. It's Grown (Daniel Coyle); Inner Game of Music (don't know but it's out there somewhere).

Good luck!