5 String Short Scales. Do they work?

[binky_bass]

23.5" Scale on my newly recieve BayBee Bee Bass. Strung E-C mind you... Strings are not quite a taught as a regular 5er, but it is very playable and sounds like it should!  

[therealting]

17 hours ago, binky_bass said:

23.5" Scale on my newly recieve BayBee Bee Bass. Strung E-C mind you... Strings are not quite a taught as a regular 5er, but it is very playable and sounds like it should!  

Ha I thought you might buy that!

[chris_b]

Good luthiers make them and players buy them and like them so, in answer to the OP, yes they do work. 

The usual rules apply. If the bass is designed and constructed well enough, a short scale 5er will sound good.

Make good choices.

[binky_bass]

Having had a chance to play the BayBee yesterday, I can confirm (with some surprise!) that it sounds and plays superbly, to the ear you would not know for a second that it was a tiny fraction of a bass! It weighs near 2.5kg and looks ridiculous (photo to prove) but it's a great thing! If a 23.5" scale 5 string bass can play this well, then I imagine an impeccably playing 30" 5er is absolutely possible.

[Merton]

I have a medium scale 5er (ACG) plus another in the works with Alan. They are great and my current Skelf has the best B I’ve ever played.

I also have a 30” 5 string fretless in the works with a friend of mine. Hopefully it’ll sound as good as it’s going to look.

[itu]

The original question is a bit like, how on earth a 34" scale would work, because double bass scale length is longer?

As said before, the string choice plays an important role, if the construction is fine. I can not see any restrictions to build a 100" or 20" scale length, as long as you can buy strings to the instrument. Physics might help but also some testing is needed to find the sweet spot to the string thickness and tension. This probably has more to do with the playability and neck construction (to be able to carry the tension) than the actual sound.

[Woodinblack]

3 minutes ago, itu said:

The original question is a bit like, how on earth a 34" scale would work, because double bass scale length is longer?

The original question (ie, my question), wasn't even slightly like that, that would be a ridiculous question as clearly I have several 34" basses that I know work.

It also wasn't 'do they work', because again that would also be a stupid question as I can see that people make them and people play them, so they obviously 'work'.

The question was to get peoples opinion on how well they work (for them), and if the B string has any additional problems due to its length. At some point (probably far from 30"), the weight of string required becomes too much to overcome the thickness or stiffness of that string and it becomes impractical, so there is an absolute point where it is not possible, but also at some point, regardless of the construction of the bass and the neck construction, the sound of the string is so different to the sound of the others that it is not really practical to have to have that string.

That was the question.

To which the answer (as many people said and I found out myself) is that they can work very well, even if the one I had I didn't get on with (for reasons other than the 5th string). But as I am on the lookout for another, nothing against the scale.

[ped]

I don’t think he meant it literally 

[itu]

Thank you @ped. @Woodinblack: I am sorry if the meaning of my comment was buried under my bad word choices, my mother tongue is not English and that may have something to do with it.

Right, the question underneath was not about the scale length per se. Your original question was actually excellent and shows that your understanding has risen far above some others (because there are people that think Leo is god and anything else is heretic). I have heard that there are people - and some musicians, too - that have issues thinking outside the box.

I have issues with my hands (used to do roadcycling and let the cold wind do evil tricks to my wrists) and I have tried several basses that might be comfortable to me (bass ergonomics is a bit underrated issue). I think that many players could play far better, if the bass was fitted to them just like a road bike. I have played Guild Ashbory to double bass and at the moment my main e. basses are 33.8", 35" and 36". That 35" has the worst feel to my left wrist but I am adjusting the height and it gets better.

As you said neck profiles are one big concern that puzzle me, too. My 36" fretless has a profile that is a block. No U nor V but a square block (with rounded edges). It is very comfortable for my dear hands but only a local luthier could make that happen. It is close to a slide "g-word" neck profile but works like a dream. To me, that is.

My wish is that every player could build (not literally) an instrument from a table of features that match the player. Scale length, body weight and shape, electronics, ergonomics and so on. I hate the recommendation: "Buy a P/J", because it is not the one that fits everyone. Someone may say that it is hard to make the choice if you do not know nothing about them. Well, it is the same with road bikes, too. But there are people that can tell you, what to look after and what seems to suit you. Then a CNC could do the best guess at that point. Luthier maybe later. Yes, there are issues like retail value, but my perspective starts from the player.

Another string length is indeed a very interesting question. As we saw, there were just few real recommendations. I wish you could be the expert in the near future to tell me, what strings might be suitable for a small sized travel bass.

Edited May 2, 2019 by itu
st fixed to r

[Sibob]

Serek seem to be garnering a lot of praise around their Midwestern 2 (30” scale) 5 string.

All in the construction and the string

Si

[Woodinblack]

8 hours ago, itu said:

Thank you @ped. @Woodinblack: I am sorry if the meaning of my comment was buried under my bad word choices, my mother tongue is not English and that may have something to do with it.

Sorry that is an overreaction because I have been having one of those weeks where I am getting a lot of people tell me I had asked questions I not (in a work context).

8 hours ago, itu said:

I have issues with my hands (used to do roadcycling and let the cold wind do evil tricks to my wrists) and I have tried several basses that might be comfortable to me (bass ergonomics is a bit underrated issue). 

See, I haven't had any specific problem with my hands, but as I am getting older, there are some stretches that hurt a bit and I am thinking, maybe I should look into doing something about it before I have a problem.

8 hours ago, itu said:

 Someone may say that it is hard to make the choice if you do not know nothing about them. Well, it is the same with road bikes, too.

It is indeed. But sometimes the only way you can find out what you do like is by it not being something you got. Like with pickups, as you said, the Maruszczyk I got and sold (what this thread was about) was a nice bass, but it managed to completely not move me. Maybe that was the pickups. I have just got a short scale Gretsch (4 string) which was a fraction of the cost, and I am loving that, but ultimately I am a 5 string player and it is a pain having a string missing.

8 hours ago, itu said:

Another string length is indeed a very interesting question. As we saw, there were just few real recommendations. I wish you could be the expert in the near future to tell me, what strings might be suitable for a small sized travel bass.

I did another thread about strings, and I ended up getting string from Newtone, which were the only company that I could find specific 5 string short scale strings.

 

[Guest ixlramp]

Scale length is of course extremely important, if it gets particularly short no amount of build quality can compensate, due to string physics. I'm not saying 30" is too short though.

Keep in mind that a shorter scale doesn't require as much tension, the same tension feels tighter because the string anchor points are closer and the typical vibrating length is shorter. So you don't need to increase gauge as much as you may initially think, or even at all, it may even be best to reduce gauge. Using the smallest practical gauge and lowest practical tension really helps as stiffness is a big problem.

[eude]

4 hours ago, ixlramp said:

Scale length is of course extremely important, if it gets particularly short no amount of build quality can compensate, due to string physics. I'm not saying 30" is too short though.

Keep in mind that a shorter scale doesn't require as much tension, the same tension feels tighter because the string anchor points are closer and the typical vibrating length is shorter. So you don't need to increase gauge as much as you may initially think, or even at all, it may even be best to reduce gauge. Using the smallest practical gauge and lowest practical tension really helps as stiffness is a big problem.

Completely agree, strings vary SO much in tension and feel too.
I use custom Newtone strings on my basses, would to compensate for the loss of tension due to the shorter scale, but I popped a set of stock SIT Silencers on my fretless 6er as I had them lying around, and the tension on them, even though they're designed for 34" scale, is actually really good.

Custom strings really help, but as you stated, you might find that regular strings work just as well.

Eude

 

[binky_bass]

The 5 string BayBee has a set of Dunlop super brights on it (from a 6 string set minus the B). 

My band play half a step down, with a number of songs in C, and the BayBee handled it perfectly, the tone was still superb and yes the tension was lighter, but it was far from floppy...

If a regular set of strings, tuned down to C, can work almost perfectly on a 23.5" scale bass, I'm struggling a bit to see how a 30" scale bass, if built correctly, would have any troubles at all. 

Maybe the BayBee is running on some kind of Voodoo... 🤔

Edited May 3, 2019 by binky_bass

[Dazed]

I’ve been looking into shorter scales for a while now, a recent obsession after stumbling across Callowhill on Talkbass. He built quite a few 30” 5 and 6 strings. I couldn’t find a bad review and no issues with scale length, playability. 

 

Back to plotting. 

[kumimajava]

14 hours ago, Dazed said:

I’ve been looking into shorter scales for a while now, a recent obsession after stumbling across Callowhill on Talkbass. He built quite a few 30” 5 and 6 strings. I couldn’t find a bad review and no issues with scale length, playability. 

 

Back to plotting. 

The Callowhill basses are indeed legendary, but hard to find in CITES compatible configurations. Very sadly, the builder has passed away so we aren't going to see any more... 

[skelf]

Used to chat with Tim on various forums. A really funny guy as well as great builder. 

 

I am a a big fan of short scales the more I build the more I like them. Improved string technology and the correct building techniques have made them more than a viable option for most players. 

[bassist_lewis]

On 03/05/2019 at 17:21, Dazed said:

I’ve been looking into shorter scales for a while now, a recent obsession after stumbling across Callowhill on Talkbass. He built quite a few 30” 5 and 6 strings. I couldn’t find a bad review and no issues with scale length, playability. 

 

Back to plotting. 

This thread has been a bit quiet but as a Callowhill MPB owner (#0189) I can confirm that the B string is a beast. A drummer commented the other week about how strong it sounded compared to other basses, I'm not sure he even knew at that point it was a short scale. 
Someone mentioned difficulty finding short scale B strings, I am yet to find any, but I expect as short scale 5s are becoming more popular (Jake Serek of Serek basses also builds them) manufacturers will catch on and start producing them. What I've done, and what Tim suggested, was to get a regular scale B string and just cut it down (I use a D'Addario Nickel .130). Cutting them down to an appropriate length for winding and not unravelling the whole string is a bit of a skill and I've butchered a few in the process but the results are good.

[Merton]

Get Newtone to make a set for you. I have a set on my new 30” five string fretless and the B is awesome.

[Woodinblack]

15 minutes ago, bassist_lewis said:

Someone mentioned difficulty finding short scale B strings, I am yet to find any, but I expect as short scale 5s are becoming more popular (Jake Serek of Serek basses also builds them) manufacturers will catch on and start producing them. 

 

13 minutes ago, Merton said:

Get Newtone to make a set for you. I have a set on my new 30” five string fretless and the B is awesome.

It was me who said about the short scale strings being hard to find. I couldn't find any until I found newtone but once I had find them, I wouldn't have needed any other strings as they are great and the company are helpful.

they do any strings you want but they have short scale sets.

[bassist_lewis]

On 23/06/2019 at 10:19, Merton said:

Get Newtone to make a set for you. I have a set on my new 30” five string fretless and the B is awesome.

What is that fretless??? 😍

[Merton]

1 hour ago, bassist_lewis said:

What is that fretless??? 😍

It was made by a friend of mine, his company is Conway Instruments. He’s done a lot of ukeleles, acoustic guitars and a few solid body electrics but this was his first bass. It’s pretty bloody good for a first bass  Build thread here: 

 

[fretmeister]

I know it's an old threat - but the Ibanez Mezzo 32 scale 5 string is excellent.

It has become my main 5 string purely on merit.