Simplified Les Paul build

[honza992]

Hi All

I’ve just finished a Thinline tele which came out pretty well….

However, I’ve found that the only time I have to practise is in the evening, when my two year old has finally exhausted herself from saying ‘no’ repeatedly and vehemently to everything.  We live in a flat so to ensure I don’t disturb her I’ve also found that I play it unplugged. That works pretty well but I wish it had just a tiny bit more acoustic volume. So……

I’m wondering whether I should building something like this, that is fully chambered rather than only half chambered as the Thinline is.

Me being me, though, I want to simplify things a bit.  I’ve found that for me I really need to build in an incremental way - making each build only slightly more complex than the last.  I know there are builders here who can seemingly conjure painfully beautiful guitars from clothes pegs using only spoons as theirs tools.  That’s not me unfortunately.

At the moment, I don’t want to do a set neck or a carved top or bent sides but I’m wondering whether a flat top, bolt-on neck, fully chambered (ie routed) Les Paul build might do the trick?

If anyone wanted to offer up an opinion, I’d love to hear it.  Specifically, I’m wondering about the following:

Acoustic volume - do you think a fully chambered (routed) body like this would increase the volume a little bit in comparison to the above thinline?

Should I also be thinking about making the top thinner than the standard 5mm or so which I would normally put on a chambered guitar? 4mm? 3mm?

Is there any reason why a Les Paul can’t have a standard bolt on neck?

I know the LPs have the neck at an angle.  Is that because of the carved top? Or the bridge design?  Or both? Does anyone know what the minimum height of that sort of bridge is?

Lots of questions, I know.  

PS.  Now clearly I realise if I want a bit more volume just a pair of headphones would take me about 100 less hours than building an entirely new guitar.  But if I did that, how would I fill those 100 hours?

Edited June 30, 2018 by honza992

[Geek99]

The LP kits you can buy have a bolt on neck 

[honza992]

20 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

The LP kits you can buy have a bolt on neck 

OK thanks Geek, that answers that one! 

[SpondonBassed]

I've been involved in the making of a couple of ukuleles.  Don't larf.  It's fun!

It's my house mate's thing really and I am on hand with my engineering knowledge and workshop facilities.  The acoustic bodies are made from thin sheet and he bought the parts with the sides pre-steamed from a chap not too far from here.

We made a former to hold the sides to size and curvature while kerfings were bonded in along with structural blocks for the neck and bridge ends.  The top and back were then bonded to the kerfings.

After his first one he decided to make one "freestyle" from material that was to hand.  This was to have a piezo pick-up, pre-amp and tuner built in.  His building style is, let's say, casual.  He made a biscuit tin shaped cylindrical body from hardboard with slotted ply wrapped around the sides to avoid steaming and setting.  The thing weighed as much as a solid body at the end.

Although technically hollow, the acoustic volume is low enough for practice on your own in a quiet room but not much more.  Fortunately it sounds flippin' ACE through his amp.

The example you have given where a full cavity is routed out looks like the sides are a LOT thicker proportionately than that above.  It won't be loud.

PS:  These were all set necks with no truss rod.

Edited June 30, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[songofthewind]

There is an absolutely riveting and hugely informative Les Paul build thread on the Telecaster Discussion Forum.

the guy is called Gil Yaron (look him up) and he goes by Preeb on that forum. He is a genius, I think, and his eye for detail is incredible. 

He also did a fantastic Jazz Bass build, which is equally engrossing.

you should find all the details you seek there.

[TheGreek]

3 hours ago, honza992 said:

 I know there are builders here who can seemingly conjure painfully beautiful guitars from clothes pegs using only spoons as theirs tools.

It does seem like that sometimes....some amazing work done by our members.

[Woodinblack]

How about a thinline acoustic - a decent volume for yourself, but good in a flat.

[Christine]

The neck angle is a function of the bridge height in relation to the frets, if you don't want a neck angle but a bridge that retro fits a Fender rather than a Tuneomatic type, an angled neck is actually very simple if you have a router which I assume you do having made such a lovely job on the Thinline. No reason at all not to have a bolt on neck.

Making the top thinner won't increase the acoustic volume, the volume on those is also a product of the top vibrating with the strings through the bridge whereas yours will have that big block underneath. I think it will have some influence on the tone but there I'm out of my experience. What I would suggest it to have two connecting strips between the the bridge block and the neck block inside (as shown on that Epiphone picture, I'm a firm believer that having as solid a connection between the bridge and the nut is beneficial to the overall sound of an electric guitar

[Geek99]

4 hours ago, songofthewind said:

There is an absolutely riveting and hugely informative Les Paul build thread on the Telecaster Discussion Forum.

the guy is called Gil Yaron (look him up) and he goes by Preeb on that forum. He is a genius, I think, and his eye for detail is incredible. 

He also did a fantastic Jazz Bass build, which is equally engrossing.

you should find all the details you seek there.

I read his jazz bass thread

[honza992]

5 hours ago, songofthewind said:

There is an absolutely riveting and hugely informative Les Paul build thread on the Telecaster Discussion Forum.

the guy is called Gil Yaron (look him up) and he goes by Preeb on that forum. He is a genius, I think, and his eye for detail is incredible. 

He also did a fantastic Jazz Bass build, which is equally engrossing.

you should find all the details you seek there.

Ah yeah, I've seen his Jazz build, but didn't know about his LP one.  I'll definitely be looking that up. Thanks for the pointer.  There's no doubt he is a veeery talented man, though I find it hard to reconcile some of his more esoteric beliefs (tone tapping wood, tuning forks to test for 'growl') with my (admitedly 30 year old) A Level physics.  But he's a man obsessed, no doubt about that!  And if the LP thread is half as useful as the Jazz one, then that's probably most of the build covered. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by honza992

[honza992]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

How about a thinline acoustic - a decent volume for yourself, but good in a flat.

That's interesting.  Being new to the (6 string) guitar game, I didn't even know such things existed.  Having said that I think even that is going to be too loud (we already get regular letters from our neighbours via our letting agent complaining about the noise of our 2 year old) so I think that may be tempting fate.  Also, real luthiery - sound boards, bracing etc etc, is far beyond my current skills. 

[honza992]

40 minutes ago, Christine said:

The neck angle is a function of the bridge height in relation to the frets, if you don't want a neck angle but a bridge that retro fits a Fender rather than a Tuneomatic type, an angled neck is actually very simple if you have a router which I assume you do having made such a lovely job on the Thinline. No reason at all not to have a bolt on neck.

Making the top thinner won't increase the acoustic volume, the volume on those is also a product of the top vibrating with the strings through the bridge whereas yours will have that big block underneath. I think it will have some influence on the tone but there I'm out of my experience. What I would suggest it to have two connecting strips between the the bridge block and the neck block inside (as shown on that Epiphone picture, I'm a firm believer that having as solid a connection between the bridge and the nut is beneficial to the overall sound of an electric guitar

Thanks Christine, spot on info. 

Yes, lacking woodworking skills I fear my router(s) get used for virtually everthing.  I'll have a look online for jigs to do neck angles, but presumably just a box type thing with some shims at one end would work.....and a bit of trigonometry.....

You don't happen to know what minimum string height a tuneomatic bridge would have?  I think most fender style bridges (from memory) have a minimum of about 11mm.  The tuneomatics look a bit more than that.  Though if I'm doing a flat top rather than a carved top, that presumably in effect brings the bridge down in height a bit.....

OK, that's interesting what you say about not making the top thinner.  Seen and noted, I'll stick to a standard 5-6mm.  When you say connecting strips between the bridge/neck block, do you mean something more like this? (which is the innards of a Gretsch)

Is it your instinct that this type of fully chambered will be a bit louder than my Thinline?  Doens't have to be a lot!

 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, honza992 said:

That's interesting.  Being new to the (6 string) guitar game, I didn't even know such things existed.  Having said that I think even that is going to be too loud (we already get regular letters from our neighbours via our letting agent complaining about the noise of our 2 year old) so I think that may be tempting fate.  Also, real luthiery - sound boards, bracing etc etc, is far beyond my current skills. 

I agree with the real luthiery thing, but I think you would be surprised at noise levels. A 2 year old is way louder and more intrusive than a thin acoustic guitar unless you are really going for it. Speaking as someone with a 2 year old next door!

[Christine]

The neck angle jigs need not be more than two bits of MDF with another bit clamped underneath at one end to create the angle, it really is very easy to do, you'll get lots of help and advice

 

this is the best I found for the bridge

 

[honza992]

On 01/07/2018 at 08:14, Christine said:

The neck angle jigs need not be more than two bits of MDF with another bit clamped underneath at one end to create the angle, it really is very easy to do, you'll get lots of help and advice

 

this is the best I found for the bridge

 

OK, neck jig looks simple enough.  Thanks for posting pictures. 

Does a bridge like that contact the top of the guitar?  Or is the connection only via the posts?

[honza992]

As I understand it the normal tuneomatic bridge (like the one Christine posted above) has a curved bottom.  Given I'm talking about a flat top guitar, would this sort of (flat-bottomed) thing be appropriate?  

https://schaller.info/en/bridges/328/stm?number=12080200&c=52

Edited July 2, 2018 by honza992

[Andyjr1515]

First of all for the others reading, @honza992 , let me tell them I've seen this in the flesh - and confirm it's absolutely top dollar.  The attention to detail is inspirational.  I don't even like telecasters and yet I'd be completely made up if I owned this beauty! :

On ‎30‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 13:52, honza992 said:

 

Then back to your question

I think @Christine sums it up well. 

Chambered guitars - even semi-acoustics like the ES335 - are fundamentally electric guitars whose sound comes from the pickups.  While the tone changes to an extent (every 335 type I've come across has a darker tone than, say, a Les Paul, even with the same pickups) they nevertheless will never sound full and balanced because the harmonics and sub-harmonics are picked up by the pickups, not the top.

On an acoustic, various parts of the top itself resonate to this myriad of frequencies and then the resulting acoustic sound is amplified and projected by the sound box.  None of this really happens with a thick top.

Even slimline electro-acoustics (like the Yamaha apx ranges - excellent though they are) rely on being plugged in for the full breadth of sound.

Not to say that you can't hear enough clarity to practice with a solid or chambered solid - you can.  I do!  And the more air around, the more volume you will hear - but you won't hear the full breadth of sound as you would with the resonating top of an acoustic.  A 335 unplugged is actually quite loud - but very jangly and one-dimensional.

When I next visit Nottingham (next week?  I'll pm you), I can bring along my 335 clone to show you what I mean.

There is, of course, the jazz hollow-body:

These are closer to a 'normal' acoustic than an electric and, of course, would originally been acoustically played.  Like a normal acoustic, the bridge sits on the top which then resonates.  On the solid bodies, ES335, etc, etc, the bridge is fixed into the body or centre block and there is little vibration passed to the actual top

 

Ref the later questions, yes a Tune-o-matic type bridge relies on seating on the posts, which are fixed by screw bushes into the body or central block. 

Incidentally, the bridge on a hollow body above, is actually often unfixed - you slide it forwards or backwards over the top to intonate (hence the term floating bridge) and when you take the strings off it falls off

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Andyjr1515