Super Compact and GK MB500 combination is a bit underwhelming......

[gjones]

I recently bought a Super Compact from Barefaced. I took it out for it's first real loud gig and frankly I'm underwhelmed.

My main head is a GK MB500 and paired with my gen 1 Barefaced Compact, it's incredibly loud. 

But paired with the new Super Compact, I have to have the gain at about halfway and the master at max, to keep up with a loudish drummer.

Initially I thought it was the high output of my Fender Precision Elite that was the problem, as the sound was breaking up but I then switched the bass to passive and I still couldn't get the kind of volume I can get with my old Barefaced Compact, without winding up the master to maximum.

I don't know if the problem is with my bass, the Super Compact, or the GK MB500 (i.e. not enough watts to drive the cab to it's maximum)?

I almost bought a GK MB800 but my MB500 is super loud with my old Compact, so I decided to ask the Basschat hive mind what they think the solution may be.

 

 

P.S. By the way, the reason I bought the Super Compact, was because my old Compact can be difficult to hear when I'm standing close to it and I was advised the Super Compact is easier to hear on a cramped stage.

Edited July 1, 2018 by gjones

[Pea Turgh]

Maybe it just needs running in?

[MoonBassAlpha]

Iirc,  the spec for the super Compact is 97dB as opposed to 98 for the original Compact. This and a playing in period might just account for the perceived difference in volume. The new driver might have less distortion too (can't really verify this ) and the  cleaner sound could be cutting through the mix less due to fewer higher harmonics.

[Phil Starr]

It might be sensible to contact Barefaced, or you could try a pm to Alex to get him to contribute here.

If the difference is only 1dB you'd only notice the difference when switching between cabs in an A/B test. Having said that the broadband sensitivity doesn't tell you much, most of what we perceive as loudness is about the midrange sensitivity so a speaker with a flatter response may sound quieter. There's also the reality that in practice smaller speakers usually need more power to get the same volume of sound, whatever the advertising implies. A speaker may be very efficient compared with other speakers of it's type but a 1x12 is never going to be as efficient as an 8x10. Then you had your original speaker for a while and you'll have been tweaking the eq to get the best out of it, it'll be a while before you get to the same place with the new one.

I really wouldn't worry about where the gain and master volume are set. So long as you could keep up with the drummer and the sound isn't distorting then your amp is happy, maybe this speaker just needs driving a little harder and that's OK. Obviously if it's distorting and the amp is overloading then that's a different issue but if your speaker gives you less gain then the amp will have to give a little more.

 

[chris_b]

9 hours ago, gjones said:

I bought the Super Compact, was because my old Compact can be difficult to hear when I'm standing close to it and I was advised the Super Compact is was easier to hear on a cramped stage.

I guess you might have been advised by Alex? I'd drop him another email if I were you.

I would usually use 2 SC's in a band with a loud drummer.

What do the rest of the band say? Do they think you are quieter with the new cab?

[gary mac]

I use a SC with a GK Fusion 500 and usually get a sound that I'm very happy with. It has most definitely improved with use and seems to respond extremely well when driven quite hard.

[T-Bay]

Have you tried it at different venues? I have a compact and at our gig on Friday could hardly hear a thing, but when I went out front it was full on in there. It could have been the shape of the room as it’s never happened before. I hadn’t taken the midget I pair with it as the room was fairly small and we were asked not to be ‘too loud’ but I wish I had had it to use as a monitor if nothing else.

[gjones]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

It might be sensible to contact Barefaced, or you could try a pm to Alex to get him to contribute here.

If the difference is only 1dB you'd only notice the difference when switching between cabs in an A/B test. Having said that the broadband sensitivity doesn't tell you much, most of what we perceive as loudness is about the midrange sensitivity so a speaker with a flatter response may sound quieter. There's also the reality that in practice smaller speakers usually need more power to get the same volume of sound, whatever the advertising implies. A speaker may be very efficient compared with other speakers of it's type but a 1x12 is never going to be as efficient as an 8x10. Then you had your original speaker for a while and you'll have been tweaking the eq to get the best out of it, it'll be a while before you get to the same place with the new one.

I really wouldn't worry about where the gain and master volume are set. So long as you could keep up with the drummer and the sound isn't distorting then your amp is happy, maybe this speaker just needs driving a little harder and that's OK. Obviously if it's distorting and the amp is overloading then that's a different issue but if your speaker gives you less gain then the amp will have to give a little more.

 

The sound I was looking for was a clean sound. With the gain up at halfway, the sound I was getting was starting to get a bit gnarly and distorted. Also, the limiter on the amp was cutting in, which has never happened before.

The speaker wasn't farting, so I feel the Super Compact would have been fine with a more powerful amp. 

I could do one of two things, I suppose, get a louder amp (such as the GK MB800) or bring both the Super Compact and my old Compact along to louder gigs (I was hoping for a one cab solution).

Maybe I need one of these....

 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by gjones

[Mickeyboro]

I use a mark bass MB800 and previously a tonehammer 500 with my SC. The extra headroom is worth it

[gjones]

5 hours ago, T-Bay said:

Have you tried it at different venues? I have a compact and at our gig on Friday could hardly hear a thing, but when I went out front it was full on in there. It could have been the shape of the room as it’s never happened before. I hadn’t taken the midget I pair with it as the room was fairly small and we were asked not to be ‘too loud’ but I wish I had had it to use as a monitor if nothing else.

I tried it, last weekend, at a bar we play regularly. I played my Jazz, with a J retro pre amp at that gig, and I didn't notice any problem. I've got a few more gigs in July so I'll take it out and give it a blast with different basses. Hopefully I'll figure out what the issue is. 

[gary mac]

I'm sure you'll get there with it. I had used Mark Bass cabs for years and it took me a fair few gigs and eq adjustments to get the best out of the SC.

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, gjones said:

I tried it, last weekend, at a bar we play regularly. I played my Jazz, with a J retro pre amp at that gig, and I didn't notice any problem. I've got a few more gigs in July so I'll take it out and give it a blast with different basses. Hopefully I'll figure out what the issue is. 

Oh that's interesting, I have a J Retro on my Jazz. I get lovely sounds at home and through headphones in particular but in noisy environments have had problems with not being able to pick out the bass. Swapping to a P the problem disappears and on days when I record the gig there is always  plenty of sound out there from the J, I'm just not getting it. I've even wondered about going back to passive. The J retro has bass boost only so unless the bass is turned right down you can  have a lot of bass boost without realising it. 3dB of boost is going to double the demand for power from your amp for a fairly subtle change in tone. I used to get some nice tones from the j-Retro with my old Hartke but with some strange shapes on the graphic. If you have a range of basses it might be worth investigating.

[stevie]

On 01/07/2018 at 07:49, Pea Turgh said:

Maybe it just needs running in sending back.

 

[gary mac]

1 minute ago, stevie said:

 

[ebenezer]

The early compact featured the eminence 3015 ho which is a very efficient driver.....the new 12 inch driver used now, as far as i can see

is based on the 3012lf  kappalite...or a variation of, so to get comparable volume you will need plenty of horse power.....of course i may 

stand corrected. 

[stevie]

1 hour ago, ebenezer said:

The early compact featured the eminence 3015 ho which is a very efficient driver.....the new 12 inch driver used now, as far as i can see

is based on the 3012lf  kappalite...or a variation of, so to get comparable volume you will need plenty of horse power.....of course i may 

stand corrected. 

Exactly!

My experience with auditioning new gear is that first impressions are crucial - and they're usually right. Your impression of that item of equipment may alter as you become familiar with it, but there's also a good chance that in time you'll convince yourself that it's actually OK when it isn't.

The problem is not your bass, your amp, your cab or you. It the cab. Quite why you were sold this as a solution for hearing yourself better up close is anyone's guess. However, your volume problem is easy to explain. The midrange sensitivity of the 12" driver in the Super Compact is about 97dB  - fairly standard for that kind of driver.  The midrange sensitivity of the 15" driver in your other Compact - as Ebenezer has pointed out - is 100dB. As Phil mentioned earlier, to compensate for that 3dB loss of sensitivity will require twice the amplifier power. Not only that, but the Kappalite 15 has a broadband rise in efficiency across the entire octave between 1 to 2kHz, where it measures 104dB. Without going into too much boring detail, that should actually make the 15 easier to hear than the 12 when you are standing in front of it.

So, having spent £600, or whatever it costs, on a box that you describe as underwhelming and that obviously doesn't do what you want it to do, you are now being advised to go out and spend another £500 on an 800 watt amp just to get back to where you started. Before long someone will be telling you to buy another Super Compact so that you can hear yourself properly.

If you're happy with the sound, volume and convenience of your current cab, the best and the cheapest solution is to keep it, and tilt it upwards towards you. That will cost you (virtually) nothing. If you fancy a new cab, have a look at cabs like the TKS 1126 which are fitted with a separate midrange driver, because they will direct more midrange to your ears when you are standing in front of them and make it easier for you to hear what you are playing. The (only) bass cab manufacturer who has really considered this problem properly is Greenboy with his F112. That cab not only has a midrange and HF driver but it also has a tilt position. I haven't heard it (or the TKS) - so I'm only suggesting the kind of cab that is likely to work for you.

The other option is the active PA cab solution that some bassists are working with now. There is a long thread on those somewhere on here.

 

 

[gjones]

9 hours ago, ebenezer said:

The early compact featured the eminence 3015 ho which is a very efficient driver.....the new 12 inch driver used now, as far as i can see

is based on the 3012lf  kappalite...or a variation of, so to get comparable volume you will need plenty of horse power.....of course i may 

stand corrected. 

Well I've just bought an 800 watt version of the GK MB500 I'm already using, from a fellow Basschatter. Hopefully the extra watts is what my SC needs, on those loud gigs. 

[el borracho]

21 hours ago, stevie said:

So, having spent £600, or whatever it costs, on a box that you describe as underwhelming and that obviously doesn't do what you want it to do, you are now being advised to go out and spend another £500 on an 800 watt amp just to get back to where you started. Before long someone will be telling you to buy another Super Compact so that you can hear yourself properly.

I had the same problem with SC & GK Fusion. I used to play with a band who were way too loud and refused to use monitors so I had to turn right up to hear myself and still couldn't. In the end I bit the bullet and bought a second Super Compact. That did the job and I'm still using the 2 cabs.  Mind they don't move the air that my old Ampeg 410 does with the same amp. Unfortunately I struggle to get that in & out of the car these days so Super Compacts it is.

[stevie]

Yes, it's a problem I recognise well. Anyone playing through a small cab in venues like pubs, etc. has to contend with this. As I'm sure you're aware, the difficulty with hearing yourself when you're standing close to your cab is less a matter of volume and more a matter of hearing the frequencies that let you make out the pitch of your bass notes. Those frequencies aren't there when you're standing off axis with cabs like this. That's why I'm unconvinced that a more powerful amp is necessarily the best solution for gjopnes - but that's obviously his decision to make (although having plenty of amp power on tap is always a "good thing").  As well as providing additional SPL, adding a second cab on top of the first lets you hear those pitch-identifying frequencies a lot better because the top speaker is a lot closer to your ears.

[lemmywinks]

Why not just tilt your cab back so you can hear it? Seems like that would have sorted your issue without buying the SC in the first place let alone a whole new amp to pair it with.Try an adjustable stand and an Ikea laptop tray:

https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/accessories-c2/stands-and-hangers-c70/amplifier-stands-c461/athletic-w2-professional-guitar-amp-stand-with-tilt-adjustable-lever-p10608

https://www.amazon.co.uk/IKEA-BRADA-Laptop-support-black/dp/B00GMM74T0