Why isn't this system used by more Bass builders

[PaulWarning]

another innovation that I think would improve any bass is a zero fret, no more messing about filing the nut (and going too far, opps)

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, LewisK1975 said:

Twas a major selling point when I got my Elite Precision.  Guess what, after my initial setup to my preferred strings, I've never touched it!

Yeah - as with many of us - but the thing is if you are in the habit of running very low action and there's a sudden cold snap or heatwave, you can quickly adjust to maintain your super low action.

I suspect those who don't like them have never actually used one as they're much easier to adjust than a bullet truss rod or vintage basses which need the neck removed or similar. 

On 14 July 2018 at 18:04, fleabag said:

Come to think of it, the Musicman system looks slightly better as the cut out is in the pickguard and body rather than the neck itself on that version. 

[scrumpymike]

On 14/07/2018 at 19:21, Bridgehouse said:

They are rare - mainly because the bass buying public likes the Precision/Jazz 1950’s/1960’s formula of an inaccessible nut which needs the neck removing and a stupid imperial sized cross head slot that nobody has a driver for.

 

Having to remove the neck to adjust the truss-rod was one of the things that really pi**ed me off with my Fender Rascal. SO when Andyjr re-bodied it he included a little slot in the custom body and supplied a special but simple tool (actually, I think he made it).  This works a treat, is the easiest-to-adjust truss-rod on any of my basses and should be an easy mod for anyone with this type of neck.

 

[fleabag]

Thats a gorgeous body you got there, Mike.   

 

[stingrayPete1977]

On 16/07/2018 at 16:59, BigRedX said:

1. Because it looks ugly.

2. Because it's just as easy to put the truss rod adjustment behind the nut.

3. Because not every bass has a bolt-on neck.

 

1. Says the guy with a collection of Gus basses. 

2. Yeah we know it's easy to put there, it's not as easy for the user to adjust though. 

3. What's that got to do with the price of cheese? 

 

[scrumpymike]

1 hour ago, fleabag said:

Thats a gorgeous body you got there, Mike.   

 

That's the nicest thing anybody's said to me all day (come to think of it, all month) 🙂

[Kevsy71]

I had one on an MM Reflex - so easy to fine tune the action, the lowest I've managed on any bass thus far...

[Guest]

14 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

1. Says the guy with a collection of Gus basses. 

2. Yeah we know it's easy to put there, it's not as easy for the user to adjust though. 

3. What's that got to do with the price of cheese? 

 

1. It’s not ugly if the fingerboard isn’t cut out as per the OP pic - the newsest Fender Elites have it and it looks fine. It’s pretty small  anyway so  not noticeable from a few feet (as if it mattered)

Additional to 2. is that a thick volute is no longer necessary at the headstock to accommodate the truss rod nut whe it’s at the body end. Having had this on both a Stingray and a Sadowsky it’s so much better and easier to use than the headstock-end version there’s no contest.

3. You could fit this style of truss on a through neck, albeit with a bit of extra carving.

Edited July 18, 2018 by FDC484950

[Geek99]

Having had both I much prefer this to butt end adjustment 

[BigRedX]

58 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

1. It’s not ugly if the fingerboard isn’t cut out as per the OP pic - the newsest Fender Elites have it and it looks fine. It’s pretty small  anyway so  not noticeable from a few feet (as if it mattered)

Additional to 2. is that a thick volute is no longer necessary at the headstock to accommodate the truss rod nut whe it’s at the body end. Having had this on both a Stingray and a Sadowsky it’s so much better and easier to use than the headstock-end version there’s no contest.

3. You could fit this style of truss on a through neck, albeit with a bit of extra carving.

1. But as the owner of a bass close-up is where I'll mostly be looking at it, and I don't like the look.

2. A volute is not at all necessary for necks with the truss rod adjustment at the headstock. None of my Gus Basses or Guitar have a volute. Even Fender don't shape their necks any differently to accommodate a headstock end truss rod adjustment.

3. I'm sure you could but why would you want to? Does having the truss-rod adjustment point at the body end of the neck have any real advantage ergonomically, allow a better range of adjustment, or is it easier to fit?

In fact would the luthiers/manufacturers on here care to comment? So: @skelf @Andyjr1515 @Manton Customs @Chownybass @Dolando @RIM Basses @paulflan0151 @Christine @Jabba_the_gut @blablas Which method of adjusting the truss rod do you favour and why?

Thanks!

[Guest]

1. OK. If you find a ~1cm wide piece of metal ugly that you can hardly see when playing then - whatever!

2. It’s the weakest point of the neck when there is a truss rod adjuster present. Instruments with angled headstock usually include a volute to provide more strength in that area. Fender don’t actively thicken the neck at that point but because the headstock is parallel with the neck but set back the truss rod nut area is thicker and so stronger. I can’t comment on your Gus instruments as I’ve never played one. EDIT: looking at the Gus website they lay a skin of carbon from the headstock to the body, so probably don’t need to strengthen the end of the neck. Hardly relevant to every other bass and guitar made (excepting perhaps the Parker guitar range, with a similar idea, perhaps).

3. Have you used a bass with this type of adjuster? Not sure how asking a random selection of bass makers is relevant, other than for ease of fitting , which isn’t really an issue as for most Instruments with a fingerboard, a channel is routed out of the neck, the rod fitted and the fingerboard is glued on top, usually with a piece of wood above the rod to lie flush with the neck before the board is fitted. Which end the nut is fitted isn’t going to make much difference. If Fender and Musicman can do it,  how hard can it be? In answer to your question, why not? It’s dead easy to adjust the truss rod wearing the bass without fiddling around with an Allen key stuck up the end of the neck, removing a cover and most likely shifting strings out of the way. 

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by FDC484950

[Christine]

Any truss rod has a degree of fiddlyness to fit so that isn't an issue especially if the thing is being cut on a CNC. The advantage as I see it for a spoked wheel is in these two things:

It moves a tiny bit of weight back down the neck to inside the strap buttons

It leaves more timber at a known weak spot on many headstock designs, (Rics being a prime example with that double truss rod) which in turn cleans up the headstock visually which aesthetically gets more attention than the top of the neck where it joins the body

Other than that I suppose a steel spoke wheel has more longevity than a brass nut if abused

My own favourite is the modern barrel dual action truss rod which needs nothing more than an 8mm hole at the headstock but StewMac sell those with a spoke wheel too, maybe I will try one of those next time if I get the choice

[BigRedX]

57 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

1. OK. If you find a ~1cm wide piece of metal ugly that you can hardly see when playing then - whatever!

2. It’s the weakest point of the neck when there is a truss rod adjuster present. Instruments with angled headstock usually include a volute to provide more strength in that area. Fender don’t actively thicken the neck at that point but because the headstock is parallel with the neck but set back the truss rod nut area is thicker and so stronger. I can’t comment on your Gus instruments as I’ve never played one. EDIT: looking at the Gus website they lay a skin of carbon from the headstock to the body, so probably don’t need to strengthen the end of the neck. Hardly relevant to every other bass and guitar made (excepting perhaps the Parker guitar range, with a similar idea, perhaps).

3. Have you used a bass with this type of adjuster? Not sure how asking a random selection of bass makers is relevant, other than for ease of fitting , which isn’t really an issue as for most Instruments with a fingerboard, a channel is routed out of the neck, the rod fitted and the fingerboard is glued on top, usually with a piece of wood above the rod to lie flush with the neck before the board is fitted. Which end the nut is fitted isn’t going to make much difference. If Fender and Musicman can do it,  how hard can it be? In answer to your question, why not? It’s dead easy to adjust the truss rod wearing the bass without fiddling around with an Allen key stuck up the end of the neck, removing a cover and most likely shifting strings out of the way. 

I'm a great believer in good design and good ergonomics, and while having all the working parts on show might have been interesting in the 80s for post-modern architecture, I 'm not so sure that it has as much relevance in 21st century guitar and bass design. Besides IME truss rod adjustment shouldn't be something you need to do on a regular basis so it makes sense to me, to hide the mechanism away so that it is only accessible if you really need to use it. 

The only times I have needed to adjust the truss rod has been when I have changed to strings with a radically different tension, or when I have bought a guitar from somewhere that has a significantly different climate to that of the UK. In these cases the adjustment has always been best made in several increments over a period of days. I would never want to adjust the truss rod while wearing the bass, mostly because I find that I also need to encourage the neck to bend in the correct place which can only be done by placing the the bass with the relevant area on my leg and pushing down either side. If you don't do this I find the neck will bend either at the weakest point or mid-way along the truss rod length which is not always where you want it. I think musicians are too prone to fiddle unnecessarily with their instruments and making the truss rod adjustment easily accessible only facilitates this behaviour.

I don't have a problem with the volute, and besides the volutes on most modern instruments are so tiny to be almost negligible. Most angled headstocks are either multi-laminated layers or  scarf-jointed which makes them far stronger than that of a single-piece neck, so the absence of a conventional large volute is less important than it use to be. There is no longer the requirement to build everything big and clunky as it was in the 50s.

And the reason I asked "a random selection of bass makers" is that I suspect that they will know a lot more about the process and the various pros and cons of where to have the truss rod adjustment., than a random selection of bass players. Besides I am interested in the process and hopefully I'll learn something from them.

[BigRedX]

56 minutes ago, Christine said:

Any truss rod has a degree of fiddlyness to fit so that isn't an issue especially if the thing is being cut on a CNC. The advantage as I see it for a spoked wheel is in these two things:

It moves a tiny bit of weight back down the neck to inside the strap buttons

It leaves more timber at a known weak spot on many headstock designs, (Rics being a prime example with that double truss rod) which in turn cleans up the headstock visually which aesthetically gets more attention than the top of the neck where it joins the body

Other than that I suppose a steel spoke wheel has more longevity than a brass nut if abused

My own favourite is the modern barrel dual action truss rod which needs nothing more than an 8mm hole at the headstock but StewMac sell those with a spoke wheel too, maybe I will try one of those next time if I get the choice

Many thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread Christine! 

So do you have a preference for the positioning of the truss rod adjustment or does it depend on the overall design of the instrument?

Regarding the brass nut, when I first became interested in guitar construction there was nothing like the wealth of resources available now, and my information was mostly gleaned from Stephen Delft's excellent series on how to build an electric guitar which was published monthly in International Musician magazine and included a whole section on making your own truss rod from scratch. His philosophy was that you made the most easily accessible part from the softest metal, so that if the mechanism was abused, the nut would fail before the rest of the truss rod and could be unscrewed and replaced with a new one. At the time that made a lot of sense to me. Is that still the case with modern construction methods where it seems that the whole truss rod can be easily removed and replaced if necessary?

[Christine]

8 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Many thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread Christine! 

So do you have a preference for the positioning of the truss rod adjustment or does it depend on the overall design of the instrument?

Regarding the brass nut, when I first became interested in guitar construction there was nothing like the wealth of resources available now, and my information was mostly gleaned from Stephen Delft's excellent series on how to build an electric guitar which was published monthly in International Musician magazine and included a whole section on making your own truss rod from scratch. His philosophy was that you made the most easily accessible part from the softest metal, so that if the mechanism was abused, the nut would fail before the rest of the truss rod and could be unscrewed and replaced with a new one. At the time that made a lot of sense to me. Is that still the case with modern construction methods where it seems that the whole truss rod can be easily removed and replaced if necessary?

I like the adjustment in the headstock but to be 100% truthful it's for no good reason other than my first bass in the mid 70s (a Satellite) which was complete junk had a spokewheel adjuster and I've held a bit of a prejudice ever since. I do see the sense in a spoke wheel but not for every design.

There's a lot of sense in that about the truss rod nut but personally I like to have a hard wearing material and use the correct tool, it seems that brass ones just get rounded off all too quickly by idiots who don't use the right tools or how to adjust the rod properly.

[Jabba_the_gut]

I quite like the spoke wheel truss rods for their ease of use and that there is no nut to round off!! I have had a few Musicman basses and think that this is an easy and tidy enough solution. It also means you don't need to have an exact tool to make adjustments (though I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the job).

Having said that, on the basses that I've made I've always used the barrel type truss rods with the adjustment at the heel. Only reasons for this are I don't have volutes on my necks so I work on the principle that leaving the most amount of wood around the nut is a benefit and I prefer the cleaner look of the headstock. No experience or scientific reason for this decision - just my preference.

Cheers

 

[Ghost_Bass]

I owned a late 70's italian Eko (gibson EB copy) with this system in a one-way truss rod so the idea isn't exactly new. I too wish more builders would use it.

[Dolando]

Thanks for tagging. Its a very interesting idea. And I do a lot of setups in my day to day work and heel adjusting truss rods are a right pain! 

I prefer heel adjustments purely so at the nut where the neck is thinnest it has the most strength possible. I think the extra mass on the headstock end has some (probably very little) affect on the basses final tone. For guitars I use a spoke wheel truss rod, but for my basses I use an allen key at heel end but I rout an access channel. It's subtle, easy to do and makes adjusting truss rod a breeze. 

Seen here;

[scrumpymike]

My Maruszczyk basses have that allen key slot cut in.  A bit more obvious than Andyjr's version but still fine by me.

[EBS_freak]

On 16/07/2018 at 16:59, BigRedX said:

1. Because it looks ugly.

2. Because it's just as easy to put the truss rod adjustment behind the nut.

3. Because not every bass has a bolt-on neck.

 

1. - for me it depends on the bass...but yeah, does look a bit industrial.

2 - downside is that it naturally creates a weak point, even if you try and counteract with a volute.

3- you can fit these systems to neck thrus ok.