New Rig Or Not?

[SuperSeagull]

Can I pick your collective brains please.

I currently have a MB CMD121P - love the portability and sound. Much of my playing is in any case done in a church where we run a silent stage so I go from my sansamp to the FOH and then do my own iem mix via a Behringer Powerplay so need for an amp.

I also do some small gigs with no FOH support and the MB works well in this situation.

I am now increasingly playing some much louder gigs, often with no or limited FOH and I find the MB on its own struggles - I think it has all the power but getting it out via the 1x12 just sounds like it is struggling. I usually take along my 20 year old Ashdown 1x15 to help but this is a big old cab, heavy and the MB doesn’t sit comfortably on top of it. 

My conumdrum therefore is do I keep the MB combo, buy a MB 1x12 cab and expect the two twelves to overcome the issues I hear with one twelve? Or sell the MB combo and get a Barefaced Super Twin (or similar) in the expectation that this 2x12 will sound materially better than two MB 1x12’s (plus of course will need a new amp head). Or get a powered cab and leave all all the eq’ing to the sansamp. 

Portability, low weight is high on the agenda as well.

Thanks

[Al Krow]

35 minutes ago, SuperSeagull said:

I currently have a MB CMD121P - love the portability and sound...Portability, low weight is high on the agenda as well.

For me the key to unlocking the answer here is in your first statement: you 'love the portability and sound'.

If that's the case, then having something that you already really like is worth a lot when evaluating your options. The missing piece of the jigsaw is a lack of volume. 

My suggestion would be to get a MB 121 NY cab (and even better, if there's one available second hand in very good condition) to pair with your CMD 121P.

This should do five useful things:

a) increase the output of your amp from 300W to 500W;

b) double the amount of air that your single cab is shifting;

The combined effect of the above two will be:

c) a considerable increase in volume which I'd be very surprised if it didn't meet your needs. (For comparison I have a MB AC 121 Lite which puts 500W through a single 12" speaker and I've never had to push this more than half way on either the volume or gain knobs. I'd expect your rig, with the additional 12" speaker, to be louder than mine, so you should have plenty of headroom).

d) you will have the flexibility to just use your single 300W combo for smaller events and the full rig for larger events;

e) the fifth (not to be dismissed) point is that you will have a matching / compact / lightweight rig with many admirers(!) which you should not have any difficulty in moving on if / when you decide to do so.

...just my tuppence worth - hope that's of some use  

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Al Krow

[Sparky Mark]

I used to have a CMD121P combo to which I added a NY121P cab. The increase in volume sounds more like four times and the fullness of sound is amazing. Do it now!!! As I already had a LM3 I sold the combo and bought another NY121P cab for my lightweight rig of LM3 plus two NY121P cabs. 

[spongebob]

Haven't got them anymore, but I used to run the same amp with cab mentioned above. Big +1 on that. Now running a LM3 and MB 2 x10. 

If you've already got the amp, get the cab, job done! 😀

[BassManGraham]

I have a CMD121P and use It with the TRV121H, as I prefer the compression driver (H) to the tweeter (P) in the combo which I have disconnected. Together they make a great punchy sound. The TRV121H is a slightly larger cab but adds volume, depth and clarity. I am sure the NY121P would also make an excellent and slightly more portable partner. I also have a Barefaced Super Twelve T which is absolutely superb but changing amps and cabs could cost you quite a lot more than that of a MB extension cab. So in conclusion I would add an MB 12inch cab as a first step.

[goingdownslow]

Just looking at the specs of the MB 121 combo and ext. cab.

Although being the same size, the combo is a few pounds lighter than the cab. What makes the cab so much heavier?

Combo weight: 26.24 lbs / 11.9 Kg

Cab weight: 29.98 lbs / 13.6 Kg

[chris_b]

Love the sound? Just want more volume?

Add the extension cab and get more volume and tone.

[SuperSeagull]

7 hours ago, goingdownslow said:

Just looking at the specs of the MB 121 combo and ext. cab.

Although being the same size, the combo is a few pounds lighter than the cab. What makes the cab so much heavier?

Combo weight: 26.24 lbs / 11.9 Kg

Cab weight: 29.98 lbs / 13.6 Kg

I saw that. Counterintuitive. Extra bracing not needed in the combo because the amp provides it? 

[Cuzzie]

Get the Barefaced Supertwin, night and day better cab and then a head of your choice.

If you like MB, you could get an MB head, or go different and change it up.

[Sparky Mark]

2 hours ago, SuperSeagull said:

I saw that. Counterintuitive. Extra bracing not needed in the combo because the amp provides it? 

I wouldn't get too hung up about what the specs say about weights. I have two NY121P cabs and they are not the same weight but that's fine as they are still a one hand lift each. I would try to find an older Italian made cab with a B&C driver in it. 

[SuperSeagull]

2 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Get the Barefaced Supertwin, night and day better cab and then a head of your choice.

If you like MB, you could get an MB head, or go different and change it up.

I was afraid someone would say that! I guess the question, leaving aside money for the moment, is does a Supertwin sound that much better than a MB 1x12 x 2 rig. My sense is it is better but enough to warrant the upheaval and yes, extra spend. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by SuperSeagull

[Cuzzie]

Yes it does!

Clear, precise, punchy, transparent with great dispersion. It will throw out whatever you send it with aplomb and laugh in your face for not driving it hard enough.

 

[chris_b]

30 minutes ago, SuperSeagull said:

. . .  does a Supertwin sound that much better than a MB 1x12 x 2 rig. My sense is it is better but enough to warrant the upheaval and yes, extra spend. 

Much better? That's a very subjective question.

I use BF cabs and IMO they are "better" cabs (ie go louder, better sonic attributes and lighter) and sound "better" (to me for what I want to sound like), but if the tone isn't for you then it doesn't matter how much "better" they are. I've seen people put off by cabs at this level because they sound "different". They will produce sound that is clearer which people can dislike. I like that because it lets me cut through and makes me play better.

As you already know, this is not the cheap option. But if you think the differences in tone between your old gear and this are "better" then IMO this upgrade is worth every penny.

[Al Krow]

If you're looking to get into the BF Supertwin price bracket, then there are a bunch of other options worth checking out too e.g. Vanderkley 210s, Eich / Tecamp 212s, TKS cabs. 

I am a big believer in the cab having as much if not more impact on the quality of your sound than the amp head. 

But it really does depend on your priorities. Portability / price / flexibility and getting the most out of your existing combo will be best served by the extension cab. 

No substitute for spending some time actually having a listen to the alternatives and deciding for yourself, though. 

[Cuzzie]

@chris_b you will get no disagreement from me on what you have said at all. All of this is my opinion too, I have my likes and dislikes and irrational hatred as well on some gear, but what you have said does corroborate also with my opinion I think?!

No substitute for trying a bunch of stuff and getting what is right for the OP, but if he doesn’t get Barefaced, I am taking note and never giving him any advice again......

[Sparky Mark]

I would ignore advice from anyone who admits to having quote "irrational hatred" of anything. Chances are that they've never done a proper A to B comparison of what they have against what you are thinking of. 

I can guarantee that if you are liking the CMD121P combo then the cheapest and best upgrade is either a NY121P (my choice having also owned two TRV121H cabs) or a TRV121H.  You can pick either up secondhand on here for around £200 to £250. If you still need something different then you can shift that gear easily. Two twelve cabs can be fairly lightweight but they're not as flexible or convenient sizewise (is that a word?) as two single twelve cabs. I've no experience with BF cabs but as my Markbass cabs stand up really well against my Bergantinos I don't feel the urge.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Sparky Mark

[Cuzzie]

@Sparky Mark happy for my advice to be ignored, but equally I could say ignore people that make sweeping statements about other people’s comments with no concrete knowledge of what they have or have not used.

So quantify, for what it’s worth, (if anything) I don’t care for MB gear in looks or sound, I call it irrational because I know it’s good gear that plenty of good musicians use, but it’s not something I would entertain for me. I have heard people use it and have liked their sound, but it’s still not for me. If you read my posts, it doesn’t suggest moving away from MB gear, even if he wants a BF cab, but what I say about the Supertwin stacks up, just how what you have said about the gear you mentioned probably stacks up, and as you say, you have no BF experience so the OP can weigh up all advice as they see fit.

[Al Krow]

TBF none of us are entirely rational e.g. my "irrational" dislike is the mid-scooped sound I've heard on YouTube clips of the Tech 21 dUg Pinnick whilst never having heard one in the flesh!

The one thing I do know about @Cuzzie (apart from being a great guy and passionate about all things bass) is that he does a lot of careful research before opting for certain gear and has tried out a bunch of stuff along the way, so I think he's being a little modest in how he describes himself  

I have A/B'd the following 'high end' cabs: Markbass 1x12, Vanderkley 210, Tecamp212 and BF 1x12s

Quick summary of what I've found:

Markbass cabs tend to roll of the high end (treble) a touch; if this is an issue this can be easily addressed by boosting the treble EQ in the 3kHz to 5kHz range with a simple EQ pedal (e.g. the EQ patch on the Zoom MS-60B is just fine);

The more expensive VK, Tecamp and BF cabs all have greater clarity / better sonic attributes than the Markbass cab. But you're paying a premium price for them.

I personally (just) preferred the tone of VK 210 to the BF BB2 (1x12) and I now have a VK 210 LNT which I pair with a DG M900 head. It is undoubtedly a "better" rig than my MB AC 121 Lite (which still gets used for pub gigs), but at double the price you would hope so wouldn't you?

My favourite cab is actually my Mesa 212 PH, but that's definitely not a lightweight option!

But, as several folk have rightly recommended, no substitute for having a fun half day out (ideally with a fellow bass player) and hitting a decent store where you can A/B the various options  

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[BassManGraham]

1 hour ago, SuperSeagull said:

I was afraid someone would say that! I guess the question, leaving aside money for the moment, is does a Supertwin sound that much better than a MB 1x12 x 2 rig. My sense is it is better but enough to warrant the upheaval and yes, extra spend. 

Sparky Mark makes a lot of sense. If you like the sound you,'ve got add a MB 1x12, two 1x12 are more portable and flexible then one 2x12. I n addition to MB, I use Barefaced, Vanderkley and PJB which are all clean uncoloured. IMHO Vanderkley and Barefaced are the best cabs I've ever used, and I prefer them marginally, maybe, 10-20% over MB, but sonically I am not sure they justify being twice the price?

[FinnDave]

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Sparky Mark happy for my advice to be ignored, but equally I could say ignore people that make sweeping statements about other people’s comments with no concrete knowledge of what they have or have not used.

So quantify, for what it’s worth, (if anything) I don’t care for MB gear in looks or sound, I call it irrational because I know it’s good gear that plenty of good musicians use, but it’s not something I would entertain for me. I have heard people use it and have liked their sound, but it’s still not for me. If you read my posts, it doesn’t suggest moving away from MB gear, even if he wants a BF cab, but what I say about the Supertwin stacks up, just how what you have said about the gear you mentioned probably stacks up, and as you say, you have no BF experience so the OP can weigh up all advice as they see fit.

I personally don't give a rat's backside about what the gear looks like (even banana yellow) but I must admit that try as I might, I have never been able to get the sort of sound I want from a Mark Bass rig. Even when I just the power amp and speakers by using my DI box into the fx return, it still doesn't get 'my' sound the way my Rootmaster/Barefaced rig does. I suspect that the MB gear may be aimed at a more 'modern' sound for slap, etc. which is not what I look for at all.

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

 I suspect that the MB gear may be aimed at a more 'modern' sound for slap, etc. which is not what I look for at all.

The treble roll off of MB cabs doesn't make them that good for slap...

Edited July 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, BassManGraham said:

Sparky Mark makes a lot of sense. If you like the sound you,'ve got add a MB 1x12, two 1x12 are more portable and flexible then one 2x12. I n addition to MB, I use Barefaced, Vanderkley and PJB which are all clean uncoloured. IMHO Vanderkley and Barefaced are the best cabs I've ever used, and I prefer them marginally, maybe, 10-20% over MB, but sonically I am not sure they justify being twice the price?

+1 ^^ 

[FinnDave]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The treble roll off of MB cabs doesn't make them that good for slap...

OK, I've never played slap so wouldn't know.  I'll be playing through a MB head (couldn't tell what model, even though I've used approx once a month this year) and two MB cabs (as above) simply because it's less hassle than taking my own gear 90 miles there and back for a rehearsal, but I doubt that I'll get any better sound than usual. Perfectly useable sound for many people, just not what I need, unfortunately.

[Sparky Mark]

We're heading off topic here, but good slap tone doesn't necessarily need a tweeter (think back to early Brothers Johnson, Level 42 etc.).

Of course almost everything discussed on here is (hopefully) based on opinions that have been formed by personal experience. That is completely rational. I totally get that others have tried gear and not liked it. I never 'got' Markbass when I tried it in store but when I used a LM2 through a rubbish Laney 410 cab at an open mike night it was a real ear opener. 

Having been precisely where the OP is, my rational advice to someone who is happy with their combo but just wants the ability to go louder is to add another cab of the same type. 

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Sparky Mark

[BassManGraham]

4 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

OK, I've never played slap so wouldn't know.  I'll be playing through a MB head (couldn't tell what model, even though I've used approx once a month this year) and two MB cabs (as above) simply because it's less hassle than taking my own gear 90 miles there and back for a rehearsal, but I doubt that I'll get any better sound than usual. Perfectly useable sound for many people, just not what I need, unfortunately.

Like many bass players I slap a lot at home, but rarely in public at gigs! Oh er missus! I find MB gear very flexible the VPF gives a variable mid scoop for slapping and the VLE a great old school, treble roll off . Quilter Bass Block 800 does this very nicely indeed, but enough from me already!