Is Rickenbacker a dirty word..........?

[SpondonBassed]

3 minutes ago, Chewie said:

No, but I'm after one.

I've got a Jazz, P, Stingray & a Stage 1 & I think they deserve a Ricky sitting with them......!

You selling?  Oops, is that a dirt question?

 

Hahahaha!  No.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd look at owning one in the same way that I'd look at dating a supermodel.  Having wet dreams about one is okay but living with one is totally different.

[prowla]

Just as a foil to the "can't spot a faker" mantra, here's a Gibbo which is being called out as a fake.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/392090193584?ul_noapp=true

[prowla]

Beware also that there appear to be fake Tokai fakers about (ie. cheap copies pretending to be Tokai copies!) - there's a 6-string guitar being discussed elsewhere at the moment.

[Maude]

21 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

@Maude

That bridge looks like a one-off.  Have you any more images of it please?

@SpondonBassed It's not mine, I quoted Wateroftyne's post above mine.

I have considered buying a Chinese 4005 from AliExpress as a base to make a decent faker, only for myself, not to con anyone. I love the sound and look of a 4005 but they're getting close to 10k second hand. Way out of my league. 

[wateroftyne]

2 minutes ago, Maude said:

@SpondonBassed It's not mine, I quoted Wateroftyne's post above mine.

I have considered buying a Chinese 4005 from AliExpress as a base to make a decent faker, only for myself, not to con anyone. I love the sound and look of a 4005 but they're getting close to 10k second hand. Way out of my league. 

FWIW, this isn’t an AiExpress job. It’s a UK custom build.

[Maude]

Just now, wateroftyne said:

FWIW, this isn’t an AiExpress job. It’s a UK custom build.

Yeah I guessed that

I know the AE ones won't be good, but they will be a 4005 shaped body and neck as a base. Fill the pick up routes and holes and start from scratch with decent, appropriate hardware. Still not cheap but significantly cheaper than genuine, which I couldn't justify even if I had the money. 

[Geddys nose]

I was tempted by WoT’s 4005 when it was for sale on FB, The guy who made it is a very talented builder. 

[prowla]

1 hour ago, wateroftyne said:

FWIW, this isn’t an AiExpress job. It’s a UK custom build.

Probably better made than a real one, but probably cost a bit.

[Wolverinebass]

1 hour ago, wateroftyne said:

FWIW, this isn’t an AiExpress job. It’s a UK custom build.

By who? I'm really interested as it looks great. Pm me if you don't want the Ric police to see.

[SpondonBassed]

3 hours ago, Maude said:

@SpondonBassed It's not mine, I quoted Wateroftyne's post above mine.

Sorry.

 

3 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

FWIW, this isn’t an AiExpress job. It’s a UK custom build.

So... have you any more images of the bridge on that one?

[Passinwind]

7 hours ago, Chewie said:

That's because we're British and we're all right wing types who want the world to burn.....

Whereas I'm a Yank...nuff said.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Passinwind

[wateroftyne]

56 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

So... have you any more images of the bridge on that one?

Not really, and it's back with its current owner. I'll see if I can grab it again.

Here's some other general pics:

 

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, wateroftyne said:

Not really, and it's back with its current owner. I'll see if I can grab it again.

Here's some other general pics:

 

Thanks.

There's no need to go out of your way, I was just curious.  It was just that I'd never seen one totally constructed from sheet metal before.  Even Leo's BBOT has saddles made from round stock.

Edited July 29, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[KevB]

On 25/07/2018 at 11:59, Norris said:

Want me to bring mine to the next Midlands bash?

Shame he wasn't at the last one, must have been 3 or 4 real ones and a faker.

[SpondonBassed]

51 minutes ago, KevB said:

Shame he wasn't at the last one, must have been 3 or 4 real ones and a faker.

Actually Norris was the one giving the presentation on woodworking tools.

I don't know if he had the Norrisbacker with him this year.  Last year he did but I wasn't too comfortable about trying out other basses that time.

@Norris am I right in saying that yours is not a knock-off?

[KevB]

I was referring to you Spondon but now I've realised you were there too, so there was opportunity to have had a go - I'd have happily let you try mine. It was the jetglo one. Yes Norris's is a genuine but someone else brought a faker.

Edited July 30, 2018 by KevB

[Norris]

2 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

Actually Norris was the one giving the presentation on woodworking tools.

I don't know if he had the Norrisbacker with him this year.  Last year he did but I wasn't too comfortable about trying out other basses that time.

@Norris am I right in saying that yours is not a knock-off?

That's what it says on the replacement TRC that I made - "Genuine 4003"

Yes it is actually. I just made it look like a faker out of spite

[SpondonBassed]

10 minutes ago, KevB said:

I was referring to you Spondon but now I've realised you were there too, so there was opportunity to have had a go - I'd have happily let you try mine. It was the jetglo one. Yes Norris's is a genuine but someone else brought a faker.

Yes I was there but a major portion of my beard was not.

Thanks.  I am not in the market for a Ricky but it is nice to know that you'd have let me have a go.

 

6 minutes ago, Norris said:

That's what it says on the replacement TRC that I made - "Genuine 4003"

Yes it is actually. I just made it look like a faker out of spite

That was a kind offer you made to bring it to EMBB6 for me.  If you do, I will make an effort to have a go (you will be SO sorry) seeing as you've gone to the trouble.  It'll be a right old laugh if it gives me any GAS for one.

[prowla]

1 hour ago, KevB said:

I was referring to you Spondon but now I've realised you were there too, so there was opportunity to have had a go - I'd have happily let you try mine. It was the jetglo one. Yes Norris's is a genuine but someone else brought a faker.

And a nice jetglo one it is!

Mine was the mapleglo and Harry bought the Shaftesbury faker off me.

[Bassassin]

On 27/07/2018 at 16:16, keeponehandloose said:

So why werent they so pro active back in the 70s when the Fakers began to appear..if they had been  there wouldnt be the number of fakes there are in circulation.. we have similar situation with some products at work that have been copied but because we didnt clamp down on it straight from the offset we dont have a leg to stand on years down the line.

 

On 27/07/2018 at 17:49, keeponehandloose said:

But thats my point. Who ever was in charge back then didnt do a good job of stopping them , so it is harder to bring a case of intellectual property etc in later years because it can be said you didnt guard against it at the start- therefore you cant be that bothered about it.

Have they actually taken anyone to court?

Just catching up on this thread so sorry for the late reply. In the 70s, Rickenbacker - like all of the "big brands" - didn't take the issue of (mostly) Japanese copies seriously. This is how Fender lost what slim claim to trade dress ownership they had - and what led to the establishment of Fender Japan - and it's why Gibson finally clutched the last straw of threatening late legal action against Ibanez' brand owners. Rickenbacker was - and still is - a much more niche brand, and a far more minor player, and I think never construed Fakers as a threat back in the day.

What's interesting, and relevant, is that the modern Rickenbacker International Corporation (RIC) was set up in the mid 80s by John Hall, when he took over the business - if I remember, prior to that Rickenbacker was two separate companies, one handling manufacture & the other distribution (I think that was a common US business model in the early 20th century) which were wound up when Hall took over.

So, RIC is a fairly young company & didn't actually exist at the time of the original 70s Fakers - you'll find this interesting:

Registered RIC Trademarks

So - RIC didn't legally own the registered trademark to any of their designs & trade dress before 1999. Anyone who wanted to take on JH over the sale of a verifiable 1970s Faker - and had the will & cash to go the distance - would very probably be able to hand him his well-padded ar$e. As would Hoshino Gakki, owner of the Ibanez brand, or Kanda Shokai, owner of the Greco brand, as both could demonstrate that they were selling instruments with these designs - and bearing their own brand names - back in 1972, long before RIC existed. The same would be true of John Birch guitars, who sold a Rick-based design continuously from the early 70s up until about 2000 or so.

The reality is that despite the stature of the name, RIC is actually a small, family-owned business (owned outright by JH and his Mrs) and don't really have the financial heft to do much more than send C&D letters, and let their CEO prowl around the Internet personally barking at people who infringe his IP.

Can't help wondering how the US' current economic situation, alongside the reputation for shoddy quality and abysmal customer service RIC is getting, will play out for them. Not a fan of the man, or "real" Ricks, tbh, but would be a shame to see them go.

On 26/07/2018 at 01:02, BrunoBass said:

It’s very simple for me. 

I would absolutely love one, more than any other bass guitar. I’ll never own one though, because I refuse to pay the money they sell for. 

I used to own a 360, and as lovely as the paint finish was, the fit and finish of the scratchplate and some of the hardware was disappointingly poor. It was a nightmare to tune. It was, in my opinion, a £800 guitar with a £1700 price tag (then). From experience I see no reason why a 4003 wouldn’t be the same? If RIC made a far eastern ‘Squier / Epiphone’ version I’d be first in the queue, but I’m not prepared to spend two and a half grand on an American one.

Any reason why you wouldn't want a 70s MIJ copy? Some of these are near-indistinguishable from the real thing and certainly better-made than 70s-era Rickenbackers.

Apropos of nothing I suspect RIC is well aware that licensed Chinese/Korean Ricks would kill off their US business - the rabid RIC fanbase would consider it a massive un-American sellout/betrayal, and everyone else would choose the cheaper & inevitably better made Licensed Faker over a real one! Talk about rocks & hard places...

 

 

[keeponehandloose]

Thanks Bassassin... all my questions answered. I used to have one of the old Fakers, a Shatsbury think.. I couldnt get on with the design of the thing so took up playing upright bass which is much more manageable..

Edited July 31, 2018 by keeponehandloose
Spellcheck

[prowla]

Just one correction to the above - neither the 70s Japanese fakers nor the current Chickenbackers are of similar, let alone better quality than an actual Rickenbacker.

I challenge anybody to demonstrate otherwise.

[Bassassin]

32 minutes ago, prowla said:

Just one correction to the above - neither the 70s Japanese fakers nor the current Chickenbackers are of similar, let alone better quality than an actual Rickenbacker.

I challenge anybody to demonstrate otherwise.

What I said was

Quote

Some of these are near-indistinguishable from the real thing and certainly better-made than 70s-era Rickenbackers.

Can't actually "demonstrate" - but the evidence is that 70s Ricks are prone to brittle finishes which can crack & flake as they deteriorate, neck problems due to the primitive design & function of the truss rods, delamination because of the type of adhesives used, warping at the neck/body junction (admittedly some Fakers do this too - it's a design fault), exploding Grover tuners, tail lift...

MIJ Fakers were built using modern manufacturing techniques, materials & components like standard adjustable truss rods (usually just the one), poly finishes etc. If they display age-related issues it tends to be a consequence of the design rather than the build.

Re Chickenbackers - I don't think anyone regards these as anything other than budget copies - some may be decent enough quality, but none of them are replica-standard - and I guarantee that in 30 years time, absolutely no-one will ever be surprised to discover their 2018 Rickenbacker is really a Chinese Faker!

[prowla]

7 hours ago, Bassassin said:

What I said was

Can't actually "demonstrate" - but the evidence is that 70s Ricks are prone to brittle finishes which can crack & flake as they deteriorate, neck problems due to the primitive design & function of the truss rods, delamination because of the type of adhesives used, warping at the neck/body junction (admittedly some Fakers do this too - it's a design fault), exploding Grover tuners, tail lift...

MIJ Fakers were built using modern manufacturing techniques, materials & components like standard adjustable truss rods (usually just the one), poly finishes etc. If they display age-related issues it tends to be a consequence of the design rather than the build.

Re Chickenbackers - I don't think anyone regards these as anything other than budget copies - some may be decent enough quality, but none of them are replica-standard - and I guarantee that in 30 years time, absolutely no-one will ever be surprised to discover their 2018 Rickenbacker is really a Chinese Faker!

70s Rics & fakers:

• I've never seen 70s faker which is better made than a real Ric; that's based on my having owned 6 fakers and seen several more over the years.

Primitive truss-rods:

• One of my Rics had a neck repair, because a previous owner adjusted it incorrectly, but that is their fault for doing it wrong; why should things be done the Fender way?
• There is an advantage in the old truss-rod system, namely that they can be easily replaced.
• I like the old truss-rod system.

Exploding machines:

• I've got a 72 Ric with Grovers which seems OK (but I've got a spare set just in case!); Ric resolved the issue by replacing the machines they use and the current ones are fine.

Tail-lift:

• Tail-lift, that's a fair criticism; the stock tailpiece is an achilles heel.
• But the part can be replaced like-for-like with a current one or 3rd party. many people will replace a bridge on a Strat without complaining that a 30 year-old part hasn't lasted a lifetime.
• It is possible to fit a fix (as I know you know!).

Neck-lift:

• I don't know how many instruments neck-lift has affected over the years, but is often caused by not following the recommendations on string gauge/tension.
• Rickenbacker shifted the neck pickup to help mitigate against the risk.
• It is, however (and admittedly), an inevitable consequence of the whole premise of the instrument: placing a pickup there and having the body thin means that the wood at that point will be thin.
• But on the flipside, nobody complains that their acoustic guitar is fragile because the body's wood is thin and they have to treat it carefully, so why should a bass be any different?
• I've got a 70s Japanese faker with neck-lift.
• I suppose the basis of the issue is inherent in a thru-neck design; with a Fender, you just put in a shim or adjust the micro-tilt and job's a good 'un!

Finish:

• I've got one 60s and two 70s Rics and the finish is fine; matured to a nice vintage feel and certainly no better or worse than any other vintage guitar.
• In contrast, my experience of faker finishes is that they are more brittle than real Rics and they are more prone to chipping.
• It's funny that owners of other brands try and emulate the "road-worn" look of their heroes' guitars and refinishing a vintage instrument is frowned upon.

MIJ quality materials:

• I've had a couple of fakers whose binding has detached.
• Their tailpieces tend to be made of thinner metal than the stock Ric ones and so are equally (or more) prone to tail-lift.
• The materials may not be so well matched and may flex differently with age, for example forming a channel along the skunk stripe.

Chickenbackers:

• Yep - the current ones are pale imitations, but there are folks who use the "better than a real one" line when talking about them and I don't know who they are trying to kid.

Overall, Rics are undoubtably quirky instruments which are made by a company who sticks to its own path and has not become part of the homogenised Fender-a-like blandness of many others; I kindof like that.

I also think that the vintage fakers are fun instruments, but the "better than a real one" really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[BrunoBass]

15 hours ago, Bassassin said:

Any reason why you wouldn't want a 70s MIJ copy? Some of these are near-indistinguishable from the real thing and certainly better-made than 70s-era Rickenbackers.

No. If one came up that worked with my budget I’d be interested.