Is Rickenbacker a dirty word..........?

[prowla]

5 minutes ago, BrunoBass said:

No. If one came up that worked with my budget I’d be interested. 

Expect to pay in the £400-500 range, or £100 up for parts/project depending upon what's there.

[BrunoBass]

3 minutes ago, prowla said:

Expect to pay in the £400-500 range, or £100 up for parts/project depending upon what's there.

Thanks. I’m guessing Greco, Ibanez, Shaftesbury etc are all worth considering?

[NancyJohnson]

If I can add a comment or two to this thread...

Sound/Tone.  So many players who own these copies are under this misapprehension that what's coming out of the speakers is a close proximity to how the original sounds.  It isn't.  I'm not being elitist here or anything, but just because you have something that looks similar, does not mean that it will sound like the original.  Look, I know tone is subjective, one man's poison etc. but so many bass players (and I've played with a lot of other bands) seem to be under this allusion that just because they have an Epiphone Thunderbird or a Chickenbacker (shudder) that it's identical to the real thing, then you pull out your Gibson or Rickenbacker then plug in and they're literally jizzing themselves over what's coming out of my rig.  They are effectively more in love with the shape than how it sounds.

Sure, I'll let guys have a noodle on my stuff, but I've actually had bassists come up to and ask if they can use my basses for their slot (politely as possible, 'No, GFY.').  Irrespective of what love they may have for their copies, when they come up against the real thing, it's a lightbulb moment.  You can see it in their face.  It's hilarious.

[prowla]

2 hours ago, BrunoBass said:

Thanks. I’m guessing Greco, Ibanez, Shaftesbury etc are all worth considering?

Yep.

Lots of other brands too (really all from the same couple of factories) and variations (bolt-on/thru neck, 1/2 truss rods, treble pickup, generic/replica machines, single/dual jacks, pickup location, etc.).

The 70s ones will take standard Ric parts as-is; I'm fiddling around with a Hondo II (MIK) and putting Ric bits on it pending getting a real Ric carcass.

[Bassassin]

3 hours ago, prowla said:

I also think that the vintage fakers are fun instruments, but the "better than a real one" really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Spoken like a true Rick fanboy!    FWIW given unlimited cash I would love to own a '72-ish 4001 in age-darkened Fireglo, with checked binding, full-width crushed pearl inlays, explodey wavy Grovers & all the bells & whistles! However as it stands I'm happy with my 3 MIJ Fakers and a couple of more recent projects - one of which might well end up headless...

Could argue all day about the merits of original Rick designs (and the many improvements that Japanese manufacturers made!) - but you'll agree there's nowt to be gained - however you made a point which did make me think. Both Ricks & certain Fakers can be prone to neck-lift, which as you say is largely a consequence of the pre-1975 neck pickup route position. The only Fakers I've seen which have this are the twin truss basses made by Matsumoku - never seen it on a through-neck single rod copy. Would seem apparent that the big route needed for twin rods weakens the structure at this point - never thought of that before!

[Bassassin]

2 hours ago, BrunoBass said:

Thanks. I’m guessing Greco, Ibanez, Shaftesbury etc are all worth considering?

Out of those I'd go for the Shafty - these are excellent basses & the only obvious deviation from the original appearance is the tuners, which are generic closed-back Gotohs, used on millions of 70s MIJ basses.

Re Ibanez - these were Fujigen builds (very good quality) but typically not very accurate. Fujigen Fakers pre-date the availability of accurate pickups, so for some reason Gibson-style units were used, including a massive single-coil in a mudbucker case on the through-necks. The design did change around 1976 to use accurate Maxon-made Rick type pickups & hardware but most don't have these. You'll also pay a premium for the Ibanez brand, same thing with Greco (most of which were also Fujigen) but less obtainable due to being a Japan home market brand & never officially sold in the UK.

Shaftesburys typically sell for a good bit less than many other neck-throughs and are much more common - the same bass also turns up branded as CMI, Cimar, Arbiter & several other names, and are very solidly built.

The Matsumoku through-necks are beautiful, incredibly accurate and unfortunately the ones most prone to neck-lift issues, because of the unusually thin body, pickup route position & dual truss rod routing. I own one which has this problem & wouldn't recommend a purchase unless you can get a good hands-on look at it first. Unfortunately I didn't have that opportunity - mine came from California via the RickResource forum, after its owner discovered it had been masquerading (quite convincingly) as a 1974 4001 for several decades...

There are stunning MIJ Fakers from various other brands/factories - Kasuga, Yamaki, Fernandes etc but all ridiculously rare and pretty unlikely to come up for sale under current circumstances.

[4000]

One thing people seem to forget (or not be aware of) is that there is huge variation between Rickenbackers from different eras (or indeed sometimes in the same year). And I don't mean in terms of build quality or sound, but in terms of body shape, headstock shape, neck shape, features (e.g. checkered binding/lack of same, full width crushed pearl inlays against poured etc), pickups, pots, etc etc. Even my 2 x'72s, only a few months apart, are constructed differently and have a different headstock shape, although many wouldn't notice unless it was pointed out. So referring to "a Rickenbacker" is really a huge generalisation. My basses aren't exactly the same shape as anything post early '73 - except to the casual eye - and don't have the same neck shape, features or pickups, although again a casual viewer may not notice. They are different basses to later ones.

In terms of fakers, I've never seen anything that accurately replicates my favourite basses from my favourite era, which is really the only era that interests me. And unfortunately the tiniest details are important to me. For instance most of the copies posted have incorrect body and/or headstock shapes, by my measurement and for my tastes.

[4000]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

FWIW given unlimited cash I would love to own a '72-ish 4001 in age-darkened Fireglo, with checked binding, full-width crushed pearl inlays, explodey wavy Grovers & all the bells & whistles!

That's my main bass. Feb '72, pre-skunk, walnut headstock wings. Cost me £490 in 1993.

Edited August 1, 2018 by 4000

[4000]

3 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

If I can add a comment or two to this thread...

Sound/Tone.  So many players who own these copies are under this misapprehension that what's coming out of the speakers is a close proximity to how the original sounds.  It isn't.  I'm not being elitist here or anything, but just because you have something that looks similar, does not mean that it will sound like the original.  Look, I know tone is subjective, one man's poison etc. but so many bass players (and I've played with a lot of other bands) seem to be under this allusion that just because they have an Epiphone Thunderbird or a Chickenbacker (shudder) that it's identical to the real thing, then you pull out your Gibson or Rickenbacker then plug in and they're literally jizzing themselves over what's coming out of my rig.  They are effectively more in love with the shape than how it sounds.

Sure, I'll let guys have a noodle on my stuff, but I've actually had bassists come up to and ask if they can use my basses for their slot (politely as possible, 'No, GFY.').  Irrespective of what love they may have for their copies, when they come up against the real thing, it's a lightbulb moment.  You can see it in their face.  It's hilarious.

I don't agree with this as a general rule. There is so much variation in tone between examples of the "real thing" (and I've played many hundreds - possibly thousands - over the past almost 4 decades) that it just isn't logical. And of course people's ideas about "great tone" vary so much. None of my other 15 or so Rics have sounded anywhere near as good as the two I still have, to my ears. But a friend who bought my '76 much prefers that. All of mine have sounded different to each other. It's perfectly possible that a faker could sound just as good, if not better than, an example of the real thing, depending on your personal tastes.

[BrunoBass]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

Out of those I'd go for the Shafty - these are excellent basses & the only obvious deviation from the original appearance is the tuners, which are generic closed-back Gotohs, used on millions of 70s MIJ basses.

Re Ibanez - these were Fujigen builds (very good quality) but typically not very accurate. Fujigen Fakers pre-date the availability of accurate pickups, so for some reason Gibson-style units were used, including a massive single-coil in a mudbucker case on the through-necks. The design did change around 1976 to use accurate Maxon-made Rick type pickups & hardware but most don't have these. You'll also pay a premium for the Ibanez brand, same thing with Greco (most of which were also Fujigen) but less obtainable due to being a Japan home market brand & never officially sold in the UK.

Shaftesburys typically sell for a good bit less than many other neck-throughs and are much more common - the same bass also turns up branded as CMI, Cimar, Arbiter & several other names, and are very solidly built.

The Matsumoku through-necks are beautiful, incredibly accurate and unfortunately the ones most prone to neck-lift issues, because of the unusually thin body, pickup route position & dual truss rod routing. I own one which has this problem & wouldn't recommend a purchase unless you can get a good hands-on look at it first. Unfortunately I didn't have that opportunity - mine came from California via the RickResource forum, after its owner discovered it had been masquerading (quite convincingly) as a 1974 4001 for several decades...

There are stunning MIJ Fakers from various other brands/factories - Kasuga, Yamaki, Fernandes etc but all ridiculously rare and pretty unlikely to come up for sale under current circumstances.

Thanks @prowla and @Bassassin 👍🏻

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Bassassin said:

You'll also pay a premium for the Ibanez brand, same thing with Greco (most of which were also Fujigen) but less obtainable due to being a Japan home market brand & never officially sold in the UK.

My first bass was an ibanez Ric, would love to have that back, great sound (you won't get a ric to sound close to that ) although maybe not quite that much:

https://vintageandrareguitars.com/product/1974-ibanez-model-2388-b-dx/

[prowla]

3 hours ago, Bassassin said:

Spoken like a true Rick fanboy!    FWIW given unlimited cash I would love to own a '72-ish 4001 in age-darkened Fireglo, with checked binding, full-width crushed pearl inlays, explodey wavy Grovers & all the bells & whistles! However as it stands I'm happy with my 3 MIJ Fakers and a couple of more recent projects - one of which might well end up headless...

Could argue all day about the merits of original Rick designs (and the many improvements that Japanese manufacturers made!) - but you'll agree there's nowt to be gained - however you made a point which did make me think. Both Ricks & certain Fakers can be prone to neck-lift, which as you say is largely a consequence of the pre-1975 neck pickup route position. The only Fakers I've seen which have this are the twin truss basses made by Matsumoku - never seen it on a through-neck single rod copy. Would seem apparent that the big route needed for twin rods weakens the structure at this point - never thought of that before!

I'm a fan of Rics and fakers!

I've got a '72 Ric in age-darkened Fireglo, checkered binding, wavy Grovers, crushed pearl. 😍

[Bassassin]

55 minutes ago, Meddle said:

That is a horrible price for one of those Ibanez basses. The neck mudbucker is apparently just a weak single coil under a huge cover, and the Maxon bridge pickup is another single coil pretending to be a humbucker. 

It's a lot for a copy but alarmingly this is only £100 or so over what these tend to be advertised for privately. The Ibanez factor is a big deal because of the "lawsuit" mythology and the misguided assumption they were somehow better than other 70s copy brands. Both pickups on this are single-coil Maxons - I had the same set on an Antoria EB copy & they sounded pretty decent togenther. Output can be variable though, I think the pair I had read around 6k, but I have one of the small 8-pole units on my bitsa Faker (The Frankenbugger!) and that one sticks out nearly 12k. Something worth knowing if you have a bass with these - they have accurate date codes stamped on the backs, which is useful as most MIJ copies don't have an s/n.

Interesting (to some) detail about that Ibanez, seller says 1974 but I'd say earlier, '71 or '72 - if you look at the tailpiece, it has square holes - these were very early MIJ versions, and like the old gap-tooth Rick ones, were solid rather than hollow, so no tail-lift with these. Only ever seen them on very early Fujigen Fakers.

39 minutes ago, prowla said:

I've got a '72 Ric in age-darkened Fireglo, checkered binding, wavy Grovers, crushed pearl. 😍

2 hours ago, 4000 said:

That's my main bass. Feb '72, pre-skunk, walnut headstock wings. Cost me £490 in 1993.

Are either of you, erm, out?

Well -  I'll be around in a mo - hang on while I grab my crowbar...

[prowla]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

It's a lot for a copy but alarmingly this is only £100 or so over what these tend to be advertised for privately. The Ibanez factor is a big deal because of the "lawsuit" mythology and the misguided assumption they were somehow better than other 70s copy brands. Both pickups on this are single-coil Maxons - I had the same set on an Antoria EB copy & they sounded pretty decent togenther. Output can be variable though, I think the pair I had read around 6k, but I have one of the small 8-pole units on my bitsa Faker (The Frankenbugger!) and that one sticks out nearly 12k. Something worth knowing if you have a bass with these - they have accurate date codes stamped on the backs, which is useful as most MIJ copies don't have an s/n.

Interesting (to some) detail about that Ibanez, seller says 1974 but I'd say earlier, '71 or '72 - if you look at the tailpiece, it has square holes - these were very early MIJ versions, and like the old gap-tooth Rick ones, were solid rather than hollow, so no tail-lift with these. Only ever seen them on very early Fujigen Fakers.

Are either of you, erm, out?

Well -  I'll be around in a mo - hang on while I grab my crowbar...

Mine is identifiable and I'm sat in my office with my Winchester .357 close to hand...

(It has been customised a bit, but I'm on the lookout for a gap-tooth bridge to revert it to stock.)

[4000]

2 hours ago, Bassassin said:

It's a lot for a copy but alarmingly this is only £100 or so over what these tend to be advertised for privately. The Ibanez factor is a big deal because of the "lawsuit" mythology and the misguided assumption they were somehow better than other 70s copy brands. Both pickups on this are single-coil Maxons - I had the same set on an Antoria EB copy & they sounded pretty decent togenther. Output can be variable though, I think the pair I had read around 6k, but I have one of the small 8-pole units on my bitsa Faker (The Frankenbugger!) and that one sticks out nearly 12k. Something worth knowing if you have a bass with these - they have accurate date codes stamped on the backs, which is useful as most MIJ copies don't have an s/n.

Interesting (to some) detail about that Ibanez, seller says 1974 but I'd say earlier, '71 or '72 - if you look at the tailpiece, it has square holes - these were very early MIJ versions, and like the old gap-tooth Rick ones, were solid rather than hollow, so no tail-lift with these. Only ever seen them on very early Fujigen Fakers.

Are either of you, erm, out?

Well -  I'll be around in a mo - hang on while I grab my crowbar...

As the "checkered binding", "crushed pearl inlays" and skunk stripe appear to be mimicking a mid/late '72 is it likely to be a '71? Not an expert on fakers by any stretch but it seems less likely to me as they didn't have skunks and had walnut headstock wings.

Oh, I'm always in. 😉

[Bassassin]

26 minutes ago, 4000 said:

As the "checkered binding", "crushed pearl inlays" and skunk stripe appear to be mimicking a mid/late '72 is it likely to be a '71? Not an expert on fakers by any stretch but it seems less likely to me as they didn't have skunks and had walnut headstock wings.

Oh, I'm always in. 😉

Fair point - it's unclear when the very first Fakers appeared but the presence of the skunk stripe precludes '71 - I hadn't been clear about the Rick timeline before. Lots of (un)educated guesswork's involved in trying to date old MIJ stuff because there are no reliable records beyond a few catalogues & those instruments which have dateable components.

It's a very cool bass but I'm not volunteering to drop £825 on it just so I can pop a pickup out to see the serial!

@prowla - my dream Rick right there, you lucky barsteward, you!

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Bassassin

[prowla]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

Fair point - it's unclear when the very first Fakers appeared but the presence of the skunk stripe precludes '71 - I hadn't been clear about the Rick timeline before. Lots of (un)educated guesswork's involved in trying to date old MIJ stuff because there are no reliable records beyond a few catalogues & those instruments which have dateable components.

It's a very cool bass but I'm not volunteering to drop £825 on it just so I can pop a pickup out to see the serial!

@prowla - my dream Rick right there, you lucky barsteward, you!

 

Cheers!

It cost me £333 in 1982 - I bought it with the money my grandad left me when he passed away.

The SD went on when I was having some feedback issues and the Hipshot replaced a Badass I had on it.

[tayste_2000]

Throwing this out to the masses, just wondering if anyone with a Ric 4003 can try it in a mono guitar sleeve (you know like if you just happen to have these 2 random unrelated items lying around) got the bass sleeve and I'm thinking man this has gotta be close in the guitar version

 

Also love my Ric, strung with Chromes and sounds huge, really thuddy and thick. Moving it currently to be my main instrument.