Cover versions of songs with discomforting lyrics

[stingrayPete1977]

I think it's fairly safe to assume what would cause offence, yes it's still the choice of the person to take offence but would you give a talk about how the holocaust was a hoax outside a synagogue? Walk around a mosque with dirty shoes on eating a sausage roll? Unless you are either trying to incite hatred or a total moron it's safe to assume the 'hit rate' of offended people in those scenarios would be 100%

 

Playing killing in the name in a rock bar, far less likely. 

[SpondonBassed]

Anyone who thinks words are the cause of offensive is just a silly old bunt.  It's the intent behind the words.

 

[r16ktx]

17 hours ago, Akio Dāku said:

I am a glorified CD player and if Kendrick Lamar's coming out of the speakers, no-one starts to impose narratives onto the CD player </snip>

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44209141

14 hours ago, Akio Dāku said:

"Classical libertarian"

I was under the impression that there "classical liberal" meaning Liberal in the 19th century sense i.e. combining what  is now the Liberal left and right and used to distinguish the American "Liberal" equating with the European Liberal left. "Libertarian" performs the same function for the European Liberal right.

"Freedom of speech" is indeed a classical liberal principle, but it is by no means a fundamental immutable law of human society. Nor is liberalism in all it's parts. Including the progressive left liberalism embodied in part in political correctness.

[Dankology]

23 minutes ago, arthurhenry said:

I understand your point, but maintain that nothing is inherently offensive. What if you "choose to offend" someone, but they're not offended? What would you say then? What if they're not offended by that? Nothing is inherently offensive. Of course we should all be nice to each other, that goes without saying.

Surely something "offensive" is something which is defined as contravening the overarching social/legal/personal/sexual norms of the day/region/person. 

 

So, I suppose, yes nothing is intrinsically offensive in a way that you might be able to apply a physical test to it - but only in the same way that nothing is intrinsically "red": that is simply a word which we use to describe a phenomenon that satisfies certain criteria. I'm not sure how useful it is focus on this point.

 

Two thoughts occurred to me while reading through this thread, as a white male of just less than 40 with a very foreign name and 50% Asian parents:

 

1) As a youngster on holiday, the wee chap who came up to me and announced "you're a Paki" was using that language deliberately to offend, intimidate and injure. The word may not be intrinsically offensive but his use of it was deliberately so. Ditto the woman who came up to my mum in a shop, pointed at my dad and said "my father was killed by one of them in the war" (one of what? - no epithet was used but the insult is explicit.)

 

2) A more trite example. There are probably over 30 of us at work who share the communal milk. There are no rules applied to its use but if someone came in and used all of it to themselves every day, it would not make them a champion of libertarian values: it would make them a selfish oaf, unwilling or unable to see the consequences of their actions on others.

 

Which is my long-winded way of saying that while I would in no way support a ban on any language that pub covers bands might choose to use, it has to be acknowledged that language is a phenomenally powerful tool, even a weapon, and those that use it indiscriminately (or childishly seek to offend simply for the sake of doing so) must be prepared to accept to the opprobrium of those with a broader scope of experience.

[Rich]

I must admit that I often cringe when we get to that line in Nite Klub: "I won't dance in a club like this, all the girls are slags and the beer tastes just like p*ss". Not because I have a problem with the lyric -- I don't, and it's a brilliant tune -- but because the vast majority of our venues are very nice places with decent beer and pleasant patrons  

[nige1968]

On 05/08/2018 at 19:13, Rich said:

I must admit that I often cringe when we get to that line in Nite Klub: "I won't dance in a club like this, all the girls are slags and the beer tastes just like p*ss". Not because I have a problem with the lyric -- I don't, and it's a brilliant tune -- but because the vast majority of our venues are very nice places with decent beer and pleasant patrons  

Isn't there a live version where they sing 'All the girls are very nice, and all the boys are p*ssed'?

[Rich]

Yes, the live version on the Dance Craze soundtrack album had that lyric. I've tried to get our frontgit Tim to use it, but it takes him long enough to learn stuff as it is...

[PaulWarning]

We do Jilted John and without fail everyone smiles at, she a slag, and he's a creep, she's a tart, he's very cheap, she's a slut, he thinks he's tough, she's b1tch and he's a poof, sometimes political incorrectness is amusing.

I may be old fashioned but when did it become ok to say the C word and not the N word

oh yeah the profanity filter is really pi*sing me off

Edited August 8, 2018 by PaulWarning

[Cosmo Valdemar]

23 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

 

I may be old fashioned but when did it become ok to say the C word and not the N word

 

You're joking, surely?!

[skankdelvar]

On 08/08/2018 at 22:41, PaulWarning said:

I may be old fashioned but when did it become ok to say the C word and not the N word

2nd May 1997

[PaulWarning]

47 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

2nd May 1997

sounds about right

[funkgod]

in the soul band i am in we do " Vehicle" by the Ides of march, which always makes me squirm abit.

Hey well I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan won't you hop inside my car
I got pictures got candy I am a lovable man I'd like to take you to the nearest star
I'm your vehicle baby
I'll take you anywhere you wanna go

I'm your vehicle woman
By now I'm sure you know that I love ya (love ya)
I need ya (need ya)
I want you got to have you child
Great God in heaven you know I love you

 

[missis sumner]

Would it be a bad idea to do Smack My beach Up, in a pub gig?

[Lozz196]

On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 15:49, fretmeister said:

Would you actually use the "n" word in a performance?

 

An artist doing original works may well want to ignite debate, or make a point. But a pub covers band? They've just picked the song because they like it. They are not invested in the subject. It doesn't mean as much as to the original writers - and the cover performer cannot truly know what the original intent was.

 

I can't think of much more stupid (within music anyway) of the chance a white man might use the "n" word when covering a song in a pub. Might get a kicking, might even get a conviction depending on what the rest of the lyric was.

For me personally, no, wouldn`t matter what the song was, or what context, the answer is no. Though Skank does raise a good point above, about Olivers Army, I`ve loved that song for years and until he mentioned it I`d forgotten about the use of that word in that song.

[PaulWarning]

14 hours ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

You're joking, surely?!

perhaps I ought clarify, we, quite rightly, don't use the N word because it upsets a lot of people and has racist connections , but to the older generation the C word is just as upsetting (my 92 year old mum for a start) yet it's regularly used in public and social media, personally I'm not bothered by it unless I'm in company who are upset by it.

Yet in the 70's there were comedy shows that used the N word

Edited August 10, 2018 by PaulWarning

[Slappindabass]

We did "In the flesh" Pink Floyd....no one wver complained.

[skankdelvar]

10 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

(my 92 year old mum for a start) 

Funnily enough, my Mum is 92. All my life (and before she went crazy a few years ago) she would refer to a particular colour as 'n***** brown'. I really don't think she could see any connection at all between the word and people in the real world. She certainly exhibited no racist characteristics, preached a sort of 'do as you would be done by' philosophy and thought 'that Enoch Powell' was an awful man.

So - as a youth in the early 70's - the word had no resonance for me because in our house the word was never used in any context other than as descriptor for sundry items of clothing e.g. "Wear your n***** brown woolly hat, it's cold out".

I was consequently astonished when I first heard the word applied to another person. Even then in my ignorant innocence I thought, well, I suppose it's a corruption of a foreign (Spanish / Portuguese?) word for black, what's the problem? Sometimes one doesn't see what is going on around oneself 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by skankdelvar

[PaulWarning]

33 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

Funnily enough, my Mum is 92. All my life (and before she went crazy a few years ago) she would refer to a particular colour as 'n***** brown'. I really don't think she could see any connection at all between the word and people in the real world. She certainly exhibited no racist characteristics, preached a sort of 'do as you would be done by' philosophy and thought 'that Enoch Powell' was an awful man.

So - as a youth in the early 70's - the word had no resonance for me because in our house the word was never used in any context other than as descriptor for sundry items of clothing e.g. "Wear your n***** brown woolly hat, it's cold out".

I was consequently astonished when I first heard the word applied to another person. Even then in my ignorant innocence I thought, well, I suppose it's a corruption of a foreign (Spanish / Portuguese?) word for black, what's the problem? Sometimes one doesn't see what is going on around oneself.

 

 

 

ah yes, I remember that description of a certain brown colour, there was an Agatha Christie book called "10 little n*****s" later retitled "and then there were none", and the less said about Guy Gibson's dog the better, although the last time I saw the Dambusters it hadn't been edited out as it had been previousley. Funny old world

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by PaulWarning

[skankdelvar]

3 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

an Agatha Christie book called "10 little n*****s

A book which in its British publication stumbled over the years through various titles from the original (as above) to Ten Little Indians to Ten Little Soldiers and eventually ending up with the current iteration And Then There Were None, the latter being the title of the US version as first published back in the 1930's. At the time the Yanks saw issues of sensitivity where - it would seem - the Brits did not.

[bassbiscuits]

Ive always hated the N-word bit in Oliver's Army, especially with one of our deps being a black man. 

Every time I've sung it I've slurred that bit into something incomprehensible. 

I think I understand the point Elvis Costello is making, but it's not a word I'm comfortable using. 

[Krysbass]

On 03/08/2018 at 12:50, Akio Dāku said:

I'd never change an "offensive" lyric if I was covering a song. The composer wrote those words for a reason and I think it's a greater offence to bastardise someone's art than to offend someone who deams their language to be inappropriate. It's your God given right to be offended and it's my God given right to offend you. Words are not and will never be violence; "Sticks and stones... Etc." to equate "offence" with "assault" is a very dangerous road to tread in my eyes. 

I agree with that 100%.

But the problem is; there are too many out there who won't agree; some of whom will see it as their duty to take to social media to create as much of a s**t-storm over it as possible....😐

[PaulWarning]

11 hours ago, bassbiscuits said:

Ive always hated the N-word bit in Oliver's Army, especially with one of our deps being a black man. 

Every time I've sung it I've slurred that bit into something incomprehensible. 

I think I understand the point Elvis Costello is making, but it's not a word I'm comfortable using. 

 if it was released today it would probably be banned, I'm always surprised that it's still played on the radio,

[mikel]

8 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

 if it was released today it would probably be banned, I'm always surprised that it's still played on the radio,

I always believed that Mr Costello was taking a pop at racists everywhere, ie ethnic clensing, by including the phrase "One less white n****r" Meaning, lots of people in different countries are seen as somehow lesser beings because they don't conform to a certain stereotype. Making the term n****r colourless. Might just be my take.

[Mykesbass]

5 minutes ago, mikel said:

I always believed that Mr Costello was taking a pop at racists everywhere, ie ethnic clensing, by including the phrase "One less white n****r" Meaning, lots of people in different countries are seen as somehow lesser beings because they don't conform to a certain stereotype. Making the term n****r colourless. Might just be my take.

I thought it was a British army term for IRA/Irish Catholics during the troubles. Was told this by someone who served then. Anyone here confirm or refute?

[bassbiscuits]

3 hours ago, mikel said:

I always believed that Mr Costello was taking a pop at racists everywhere, ie ethnic clensing, by including the phrase "One less white n****r" Meaning, lots of people in different countries are seen as somehow lesser beings because they don't conform to a certain stereotype. Making the term n****r colourless. Might just be my take.

That was broadly my understanding too - as I said I understand the sentiment in the context of the song, but it's a horrible turn of phrase to use in this day and age. 

And as any grammar pedant will tell you, it should be 'fewer' not 'less' anyway

Edited August 11, 2018 by bassbiscuits