Finished Pics! Dreadnought acoustic (guitar) for me?

[Andyjr1515]

I've got a (welcome) gap between commissioned full builds.  I probably have a rebody of a Cort Curbow coming up (more of which later) but, in the scheme of things, that isn't a major undertaking on a par with a full build.

So, as some of you know, one of the things I've been doing in the extra time is sorting out a better arrangement with routing - I've invested in a self-assembled foldaway router table and am currently building a thicknessing rig.

But I've also been looking at the crazy amount of 'oooh that looks nice' wood that I've acquired over the past few years.

In amongst it is this - some of which isn't faring well in my far-from-perfect wood storage:


On the left is a sister set of back and sides lacewood and mahogany/walnut neck offcut from Chris's (our band's vocalist) dreadnought acoustic that I built him back in 2015:




Next to that is another neck offcut - maple /walnut and lastly an offcut of Macassar ebony fretboard from my recent 6-string electric build.


Well....that's most of the wood for another dreadnought - with a choice of neck to boot!


And I've got a bit of time on my hands


And I've got a few new things in the workshop that need testing out.


And I've always wanted, and never had, a dreadnought.


Hmmmm….it's tempting!
 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Andyjr1515

[TheGreek]

Go ahead...treat yourself.

Those of us, satisfied customers, won't hold it against you.

Can't speak for the other, jealous, visitors to these threads who crave an Andy Rogers creation though. I bet they're livid. 😉😉

[SpondonBassed]

11 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Can't speak for the other, jealous, visitors to these threads who crave an Andy Rogers creation though. I bet they're livid. 😉😉

You've called me out on that.

I was thinking how selfish it was of Andy to make, not just, an acoustic guitar but one that he's going to keep.  Now I realise that it is me who's the selfish one.  Even though it means a delay before we see some more bass bounty from Duffield, I have got over myself.

I will take a step back in the queue* because, Mick, you are right!  Andy, you deserve this.

In reality; I'll enjoy this because you showed Jack and me the first dreadnought last year.  Your description of how you made it was interesting and now we'll get to see you do another one.

*I have linked you up with a list of current monarchs.  Please choose one who's ransom will cover my fretless five and I'll make arrangements for the getaway car.

Spoiler

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[Jimothey]

I agree with everyone else it's about time you get to enjoy the fruits of your labour, 

Ive always wanted to try and make an acoustic bass but the bending of the sides and making the neck scares the s**t out of me so I'll be watching this with interest, 

Also I hadn't seen the thread for the dreadnought build but that looks stunning 😀

[Andyjr1515]

3 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

 

In reality; I'll enjoy this because you showed Jack and me the first dreadnought last year.  Your description of how you made it was interesting and now we'll get to see you do another one.

 

Actually, John, the one I showed you was my smaller OM size:

 

This is great for what I built it for - fingerpicking styles - but the king of strumming acoustics is the bigger dreadnought model and the OM is noticeably more limited.  This is my own (look how much the top has darkened!) next to my dreadnought build for Chris, our band's vocalist:

The reason I never made a dreadnought for myself before is that they are great for strumming (which Chris mainly does) but usually not so good for fingerpicking (which I mainly do).  But - probably by pure luck - Chris's dreadnought just as good for fingerpicking as my smaller OM.  If I can replicate that, then I have the best of both worlds  

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by Andyjr1515

[Andyjr1515]

In the early stages, my approach on this will be a bit brutal.  The storage of the back and side wood has been poor - there's been a bit of dishing and there's been a bit of what looks like water damage on one of the edges of the sides set that was there when I bought it.  

So basically, rather than hours of planing, scraping and sanding - only to find out that there is not enough usable area - it's doing what you should never do with figured woods - through the Makita thicknesser down from about 7mm to 2mm at 0.5mm a time.


And I've sort of got away with it so far.  I say sort of because at the last pass of the last back piece like an eejit, I sent the panel through the other way round - and got some pretty impressive tearout!  The other side is perfect, despite being reduced through a very, very harsh process.  The sides too:

 

I've lost a couple of inches off the length of the sides due to the unavoidable snipe of this type of thicknesser but - and I will check later today - this should still give me adequate length for a dreadnought

The water (?) damage on the sides is on the opposite side to the bookmatch join and should be well within the trim allowance of the sides.  Again, I will check later today the usable dimensions.  



So, assuming that the dimensions are usable, the next proper job is going to be bending the sides.  If they bend OK, we have a live project, if they don't I'll use up the wood for headstock plates/inlay fills, etc..

Whatever, this will be a background project as it's only for my own use so may take some time!

[Andyjr1515]

OK, good news is that all components are usable, size-wise - even the macassar ebony fretboard offcut

It also gives me a choice of two neck wood combinations - maple/walnut /maple or  mahogany/ walnut / mahogany.  I'm tempted to use the maple...harder to work but might add a touch of brightness for the fingerpicking side of things...

[Christine]

I'm looking forward to this one, I wouldn't know where to start, I think I would end up with a lot of shavings and a little bit of firewood if I tried

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, Christine said:

I'm looking forward to this one, I wouldn't know where to start, I think I would end up with a lot of shavings and a little bit of firewood if I tried

It's entirely possible that's where I will end up too 

[Christine]

7 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

It's entirely possible that's where I will end up too 

There's a world of difference between a possibility and a certainty

[Andyjr1515]

OK - rapidly onto the go/no-go stage.

Basically, if I split the sides when bending them, then the project is dead.  So I'm going to do that early on.

A few tips if anyone is thinking of tackling their first acoustic guitar (some of which will apply to acoustic basses too):

• There are lots of 'I didn't know that' factors
• There are lots of things that aren't as they seem
• Such as that a flat-top guitar is usually not flat.  Almost all of them have a slight dish - typically 25 feet radius
• The backs are also not flat.  These are usually dished to around 15 feet radius
• There are lots of pretty essential jigs you need to make.  Body mould; radius dishes (25' & 15'); go-bar deck to mould backs and tops to their respective radii
• Martin made a bracing pattern in the 30's (?) that happened to work and 90+ % of acoustic guitars use this EXACT pattern
• I follow every single hint and tip that successful luthiers suggest.  No rebellious-against-convention Rogers here!

So - the sides.  First, I found my dreadnought mould that I knocked together for Chris's build.  I then put a card former in with the back and front dimensions marked in a straight line:

 

OK - so that's easy.  So just cut the blank with that straight taper, right?

Wrong.

Look at what a straight taper does seen from the front:

 

Imagine the left side doing the same thing and you have a 'v' shaped back

So the shape of the sides needs to be more like this:

 

I will fine tune it with some sand paper on the radius dish (don't worry - I will explain if it gets that far!)

But the next stage is cut the sides to that paper template:

 

And soak them.  

Am I using MrsAndyjr1515's leftover bubble bath water?

No - I am following a respected acoustic luthier's conviction that fabric softener make a big difference to the bendability of figured woods.  I question not.  I just follow.

And on goes the bending iron:

 

So in the next couple of hours, the project continues or ends.  Wish me luck 

[SpondonBassed]

All the very best of British!

[Andyjr1515]

OK - we have a live project 

 

These need a touch more bending to take some of the stresses out, but I will let them fully dry, clamped to the formers and then do any extra bending at specific points where needed tomorrow.

 

Minor rant.  This bending iron isn't cheap and is pretty much the only one you can get:

 

The heating scale goes from 'Low' through 1 - 6 to 'High'

There is a slip of paper that comes with it that says something on the lines that you should never go higher than 4 as it will burn out the element.

Well - I had forgotten but soon remembered when there was a lot of steam but then sounds of grain splitting and no magical 'relaxation' of the wood - you need to be on at least 5 for it actually to do its job.

So what, I surmise, the makers/suppliers are saying is - 'we have underspecced the heating element and a lot of people have complained that their heating elements are burning out so don't try and claim warranty because if you have actually bent some wood then we know that you must have used it above 4 and so we won't cover the replacement element'  

Some very well respected suppliers sell these - and at a hefty price.  Shoddy.

 

[SpondonBassed]

A chap we know uses steam.  I seem to remember that he pointed to a device that was basically a hot water tank that you hold the piece over before using a former.

Kenneth Smith Ukuleles

Maybe worth an enquiry?  He lives in north Derbyshire, Clay Mills if I recall, and is a master joiner, a bass player and easy to get on with.  He gave us more information than we could take in each time we visited.

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[LukeFRC]

On 04/08/2018 at 11:31, Andyjr1515 said:

 

The reason I never made a dreadnought for myself before is that they are great for strumming (which Chris mainly does) but usually not so good for fingerpicking (which I mainly do).  But - probably by pure luck - Chris's dreadnought just as good for fingerpicking as my smaller OM.  If I can replicate that, then I have the best of both worlds  

 

Being a bassist and only medling in acoustic I find this really interesting - I used to have a 80's Takamine dreadnaught and never fell in love with it, killer strumming, not so good finger picking... I later picked up a OM sized acoustic (actually think it's a custom luthier copy of a 30's Martin, no idea, sound stunning wasted on me really) and it's like chalk and cheese - sounds beautiful and lets me do the finger picking type stuff - but like you say not so good at strumming.

[Christine]

Is steam bending a valid technique in making acoustic bodies? We made a wooden box with a hinged lid at one end, it was fed from a metal bucket with a sealed lid and a couple of electric kettle elements, it pumped steam into the box and drained the hot condensing water back into the bucket via a pipe. The wood comes out like a dead eel, it's best done with green wood but the great thing is once it cools and dries for a while it is completely seasoned. Everybody I've seen seems to use those bending irons

[Andyjr1515]

The bending irons are a sort of steam-bending to be honest.  You comprehensively soak the wood first and then spray it frequently during bending.  Some folks also use a flexi stainless steel sheet that keeps the steam in, although I find it easier without.

The other common method is a fox-type bending rig with heating pads - common in the US but the equipment tends to be quite difficult to get hold of and expensive here.  Also, it is a specific rig for each size of guitar.  Fine if you are doing multiple builds of the same design, but a bit over the top for one offs

For me, the bending irons work (as long as they are turned up hot enough) and don't take up a lot of space.  With a workshop about the size of a public toilet cubicle, that's important to me 

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

Is steam bending a valid technique in making acoustic bodies? We made a wooden box with a hinged lid at one end, it was fed from a metal bucket with a sealed lid and a couple of electric kettle elements, it pumped steam into the box and drained the hot condensing water back into the bucket via a pipe. The wood comes out like a dead eel, it's best done with green wood but the great thing is once it cools and dries for a while it is completely seasoned. Everybody I've seen seems to use those bending irons

I had always presumed that is how they did it, bending irons I only found out about today

[Norris]

I'm watching this with interest. Lovely wood!

[SpondonBassed]

18 hours ago, Christine said:

Is steam bending a valid technique in making acoustic bodies? We made a wooden box with a hinged lid at one end, it was fed from a metal bucket with a sealed lid and a couple of electric kettle elements, it pumped steam into the box and drained the hot condensing water back into the bucket via a pipe. The wood comes out like a dead eel, it's best done with green wood but the great thing is once it cools and dries for a while it is completely seasoned. Everybody I've seen seems to use those bending irons

That's what Ken was using, I'm sure.  He seemed to have it in a compact galvanised steel tank (possibly repurposed from some other water system) that was no longer than eighteen inches.

You'd need some good ventilation for your workshop to help prevent water vapour condensing on your tool steel.

Edited August 6, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[Andyjr1515]

Sides trimmed and mahogany front and back blocks glued on:

And the (unsanded) back also cut - leaving it oversize to allow both wiggle room and for the contraction when it is dished to its 15 foot radius:

Much of the build will be done with the sides remaining in the mould:

The top wood (sitka spruce) and bracing / kerfing wood is on order so not much more can be done on the body at the moment.  While I'm waiting for the wood to arrive, I'll start on the neck and fretboard.  Busy tomorrow but I should be able to make some progress on Wednesday

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Andyjr1515

[SpondonBassed]

Be sure to have a draft from the firkin whilst making the kerfings else you'll dehydrate in this heat.

[Christine]

I've had a good laugh here, you just make that look so easy! I'm impressed

[LukeFRC]

55 minutes ago, Christine said:

I've had a good laugh here, you just make that look so easy! I'm impressed

He does that. It’s mildly annoying as you end up planning your own projects- but in my case without the skills

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, Christine said:

I've had a good laugh here, you just make that look so easy! I'm impressed

Ah...but I can turn nice wood and a budding instrument into BBQ fuel just as easily - and just as quickly!