Learning and Playing are Different! Both Need Attention!

[Jeff Berlin]

Greetings to everyone! People many know of my dedication to being taught correctly. I view being taught well as a narrow principle dedicated to the learning of music on our bass. I see reading and harmonic studies as the way to do this because I notice that almost all other instruments seem to be taught this way and with a great deal of success. Being taught this way gets us to learn correctly so that we can play anything that we want in any way that we want, which might be called Art! 

My views only affect people that choose to be taught. Self taught players aren't privy to my thoughts because they don't depend on other people for their musical improvement. 

Any thoughts about my opinions?

 

Regards,  Jeff

 

[Sibob]

I’ve recently found my way to a number of your one-to-one clinics on YouTube, and got a lot from them I have to say, so thanks for that!

I’d be interested to know whether you think there is a distinction between learning music (the basis of harmony and rhythm etc), and reading music. Does reading aid learning music further than being able to get reading jobs? Or is it simply for the puroposes of executing excercises as part of your learning.

Is it possible to be a great conversationalist without learning how to read and write

Many thanks

Si

[Maude]

I'm not sure I'd agree with your last paragraph. I consider myself self taught and I've spent the last twenty-five years soaking up as much knowledge as possible from as many resources as possible. I know I've depended on other people for my musical development. 

[ambient]

I agree with you, I class myself as being a musician that plays bass, though I also play quite a few other instruments including guitar, piano and synth. I spent  a couple of hours this evening recording piano one some tracks for a friend. I play music, I don't just limit myself to licks or riffs.

[Sibob]

52 minutes ago, Maude said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with your last paragraph. I consider myself self taught and I've spent the last twenty-five years soaking up as much knowledge as possible from as many resources as possible. I know I've depended on other people for my musical development. 

I think Jeff’s general point, from what i’ve gathered from videos, is that you have chosen your curriculum, and that rarely happens with other, more classical, instruments. 

But in the same way as the best way of learning medicine to a professional standard is to be taught medicine by a professional teacher, the same is true of music, separating the mechanics from the art. That’s not to say that amazing musicians don’t exist outside of that (i’d be interested to know Jeff’s thoughts on someone like Jacob Collier, famously an autodidact), obviously they do, but simply put, the best and most effective way to learn music (which is different from performing music), is to be taught it as a completely subject, not pick and choose what we think we want to learn.

Si

Edited August 3, 2018 by Sibob

[ambient]

I think Jacob Collier has had some musical education, I know someone who teaches at the royal college of music, Jacob Collier got a place there, though I’m not sure he took it up. Regardless of his talent he’d still have had to have passed auditions and exams to get it.

[SpondonBassed]

10 hours ago, Jeff Berlin said:

My views only affect people that choose to be taught. Self taught players aren't privy to my thoughts because they don't depend on other people for their musical improvement. 

Any thoughts about my opinions?

I can't disagree.

I can add something which is probably something you don't come across much.  I avoid teachers mainly because of my experience in school.

I was unlucky.  Because I had been assessed as having above average potential in primary school (late sixties), I was steered in various directions that were deemed to be suitable for my ability.  My school report cards usually came back saying "Needs to apply himself.  Capable of much more."  On top of that, we moved as a family and it resulted in me attending three different primary schools and two secondary schools.  My dad wanted me to do university as well.

Not once could I see what I was supposed to get out of the academic education that was being provided for me.  I was resentful because I only wanted to do stuff with my hands but manual skills were said to be beneath me!  Can you believe that?  I proved them all wrong by becoming an apprenticed aircraft mechanic.  It set me up for life.  I have no mortgage and I am now semi-retired and able to indulge myself.

Without giving you a complete biography, I'll just say that I ended up with a real hatred of authority.  It is a handicap.  Trouble is, even as an adult, I have had people who try to teach me without me actually asking them to and I respond negatively in some cases.

Anyway.  I don't have an agenda to fit my music into.  I just do it for fun.  I learn in a haphazard way but until I have an actual goal, I can't apply myself even now.  If I ever get my little fantasy band up and running I will then have targets to set.  Only then can I truly apply myself.  I might give you a shout then if you're still in the education business.

[fretmeister]

I was fortunate enough to have a sax teacher (multi-instrumentalist and composer Colin Cowles) with the same approach.

Academic study and artistic application in composing or performance (and indeed practice and rehearsal) were all taught as separate concepts.

 

I played in a 14 piece sax ensemble and it was some of the best fun I've ever had in music.

 

 

[Happy Jack]

I've made this point before in previous threads with similar content ... context is everything.

The landscape looks very different at 61 than it did at 16. The decisions you make (study or not study, for example) are driven by your view of that landscape,

Having read the things that I have read here on Basschat over the last decade, if I were 16 then I'd have done things differently.

As it happens, I'm not 16.

Sad, but true.

 

[Norris]

I think that my musical training (A-level + grade 8 bass trombone) has certainly helped my bass playing. However I do use only a tiny fraction of that knowledge when playing most of the time.

My guitarist is self-taught, he can't read music. He probably doesn't know if he's playing a first or second inversion of a chord - because that's not the way he thinks. He certainly knows exactly what he is doing though. He learnt by copying his favourite guitarists. Now, if he's heard a song, he can play it - with all the correct chords, solos and little nuances. 

I didn't particularly enjoy my A-level music. I found that analysing and deconstructing music took away some its "magic". Similarly, "unconscious competence" can be a beautiful quality in a musician. Look at how many bands had cracking a first album or two, and then went off the boil once they "knew what they were doing".

Having said that, I'd still recommend that bass players learn some theory. Not every player is a savant, and may need to make an effort at playing. A good understanding of time signatures can help you nail a groove. Knowledge of arpeggios and chord structure can help you come up with interesting bass lines.

[chris_b]

48 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

. . . . As it happens, I'm not 16. . .

Neither am I and I'm currently having lessons. My first ever, and after more than 50 years of playing! We're not talking about a comprehensive musical education. I asked my teacher for help to dig me out of the rut I was in. It was a good rut. Everything I have been asked to play has fitted right in. Even so, I have always been aware of my limits and limitations and finally decided that I needed to make the effort to move beyond them.

A 5 min talk opened the door to a new way of thinking. Now we're working on my repertoire and the brain and fingers are starting to catch up.

[chris_b]

42 minutes ago, Norris said:

However I do use only a tiny fraction of that knowledge when playing most of the time.

Your brain knows how to climb a mountain, even when you're walking on the flat.

[Baxlin]

My drum teacher took great pains to explain the difference between practicing and playing, and the importance of both.