Items lost in the post - getting a refund.

[krispn]

I bought some pick up from a BC'er. They got lost in the post. Three months later I'm all out of hope for them to show up and I request a refund from the seller. I'm offered a portion of the total cost €250 but paid €370. I can totally understand the predicament but I'm insisting on a full refund.

The courier is only offering €23 per kilo compensation. I mentioned that it was a shame adequate insurance wasn't taken out and I get told it's interesting that I ask about insurance now but didn't at the time of purchase... he goes on to say "Considering what happened, I do not see why the refund would be 100% on me".  I'd just presumed that the seller would make sure they were covered as the liability is on them (and the courier) until the item is received.

I'm insisting on a full refund and while I can empathise with the seller (who had done some calling around to locate the item) I still need to finish my bass - which means buy the pick up new (Lull T Bird pick ups come up on the used market so rarely I was really stoked about this build). I now have to change what I was looking to do with the bass build a little but I was hoping to have this all done in late May/early June!

 

So my point is am I being unreasonable? I've waited three months and given benefit of the doubt but I'm insisting on a full refund. The story goes the post office placed the parcel into the wrong delivery bag so it went with French Post not the courier, Chronopost, and has become lost in the French Postal service. I'm sure that can happen.

[Hellzero]

Where do you live ?

How did you pay ?

In any case, it's the seller fault not to have fully insured the parcel and you could have lodge a complaint after 30 calendar days.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Hellzero
Could have is better...

[Cuzzie]

Personally when I sell I ensure and never presume what the buyer wants.

If the buyer explicitly says, no insurance, or they are fine with the basic I clearly state it is on their head, and I make sure it is packaged properly.

If they want full insurance, we agree that in the overall price.

In this case unfortunately the seller is at fault and I believe a full refund is in order.

[Dad3353]

Personally, I'd say that a full refund was in order. The rate at which the courier refunds 'per kilo' or whatever is not your concern, only that of the sender. He/she is the person that suffers the loss, and should take out adequate insurance if the risk is felt to be worth it. You've paid for stuff you've not received, so should get your money back, that's all.

[krispn]

I'm in Scotland it was Paypal F&F so I don'tthink I can recoup through there. I'm hoping it gets resolved without the need to go 'formal'.

[ambient]

Have you or the seller tried contacting the lost parcels people? They’re surprisingly good. I sold a pair of quite expensive headphones on here a couple of years ago, they were posted by special delivery (I always use that, it’s cheap and they are fully insured), anyway they somehow got lost. I refunded the buyer, even though it wasn’t my fault, but I also emailed the lost parcel place which is in Belfast I believe. It was quite a distinctive looking parcel; I’d sold the travel case too, and that was wrapped up with the headphones. I described it and they promised to look for it, I was sceptical but low and behold they did locate it and sent them back to me.

[dmccombe7]

I thought payment by Paypal would cover you. They have a 180 day policy that if you don't recieve the goods they will offer a full refund. 

I know this because i'm currently awaiting a decsion on Gift Experience going into liquidation and altho it was over the 180 day period they said they would investigate and if no response from seller in 10 days they would make a decision on it. 

Yours is only circa 90 days so should be covered.

Dave

[BigRedX]

There are so many things wrong with this transaction from both the buyers and seller's PoV that I hardly know where to begin.

1. Why did you wait 3 months before making a claim? IME irrespective of where in the world the item was posted, if it's not with you within a month from the posting date it's never going to arrive at all.

2. Why did you pay using PayPal Friends and Family for what is obviously a transaction to buy goods? F&F offers no protection to the buyer.

3. Why did the seller not insure the items for the full amount? As a seller I never send anything with getting it properly insured. That is factored into the selling price in the first place.

All the prices you quote are in Euros, so I assume that the item has come from somewhere outside of the UK. Where? Unfortunately some European mainland countries have notoriously dodgy postal services. For those countries I would never buy or sell without knowing that the items was going to be delivered by a reputable courier service like FedEx or UPS.

Personally I'd take what is being offered while it's still on the table and chalk it down to experience.

[BigRedX]

9 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

I thought payment by Paypal would cover you. They have a 180 day policy that if you don't recieve the goods they will offer a full refund. 

I know this because i'm currently awaiting a decsion on Gift Experience going into liquidation and altho it was over the 180 day period they said they would investigate and if no response from seller in 10 days they would make a decision on it. 

Yours is only circa 90 days so should be covered.

Dave

It's PayPal Friends & Family. That offers no protection at all.

[krispn]

Cheers I'll look into that. When I open the transaction on PP there is not an option to 'report' it the same way as a transaction through a shop for instance. A wiggle transaction I opened has the option to report

The seller has been in touch with French Post and they have a depot where stuff ends up but after three months still no sign hende my decision to seek a refund. I need my 4 string up and running again. I miss playing it.

[Dad3353]

Paying with Paypal with the Friends and Family (F&F...) option precludes the protection available for commercial transactions. One should only use this option if the degree of trust is firmly established between the parties, and be prepared to have no claims channel if things do, unfortunately turn sour, as in this case, apparently.

8 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

I thought payment by Paypal would cover you...

30 minutes ago, krispn said:

I'm in Scotland it was Paypal F&F ...

[krispn]

Big RedX

Thanks for the insight. I waited as the seller was taking reasonable steps to find out what happened and I was willing to give benefit of the doubt. Next time I'll not be using F&F!  and I'm guessing the seller wanted to keep his costs to a minimum. The item's were in France and the seller chose the courier - I had no say in who he booked it with.

There is a reasonable risk involved in transactions and maybe we all should be more prescriptive when doing the final stage of deciding on couriers we trust etc.

I still feel that a full refund is in order.

[dmccombe7]

Can't say i've ever used Paypal F&F so didn't know that.

I still think its sellers responsibility to ensure the item reaches the buyer. He should have had it fully insured even if that meant stating on his post that courier insurance would be extra if not pick up only.

Dave

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, krispn said:

I bought some pick up from a BC'er. They got lost in the post. Three months later I'm all out of hope for them to show up and I request a refund from the seller. I'm offered a portion of the total cost €250 but paid €370. I can totally understand the predicament but I'm insisting on a full refund.

The courier is only offering €23 per kilo compensation. I mentioned that it was a shame adequate insurance wasn't taken out and I get told it's interesting that I ask about insurance now but didn't at the time of purchase... he goes on to say "Considering what happened, I do not see why the refund would be 100% on me".  I'd just presumed that the seller would make sure they were covered as the liability is on them (and the courier) until the item is received.

I'm insisting on a full refund and while I can empathise with the seller (who had done some calling around to locate the item) I still need to finish my bass - which means buy the pick up new (Lull T Bird pick ups come up on the used market so rarely I was really stoked about this build). I now have to change what I was looking to do with the bass build a little but I was hoping to have this all done in late May/early June!

 

So my point is am I being unreasonable? I've waited three months and given benefit of the doubt but I'm insisting on a full refund. The story goes the post office placed the parcel into the wrong delivery bag so it went with French Post not the courier, Chronopost, and has become lost in the French Postal service. I'm sure that can happen.

 

The way I see it, the seller is responsible, as he dictates price and sorts postage. He should take insurance. It would be another matter if you had told him his shipping charge was too dear and he offered you a lower no-insurance rate... but if you didn't specifically negotiate a lower rate that way... it's on the seller.

He should take it up with his shipping company, it's not your problem quite frankly.

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, krispn said:

I'm in Scotland it was Paypal F&F so I don'tthink I can recoup through there. I'm hoping it gets resolved without the need to go 'formal'.

 

I never use F&F unless I know the recipient. Things can happen. I've sometimes just paid extra to cover for the Paypal fees, when a seller insists on no paying fees. No use to you now, of course... but worth thinking about in the future.

 

[itsmedunc]

It's a tricky one. Lots of folk want the cheapest postage and expect the best service. The two do not equate in my experience. The likes of MyHermes have been awful in the past and I wouldn't use them again. However, you still see folk complaining about the price a seller is asking for postage and saying that Herpes will do it for half of that price.

If I sell something and post it (after a few problems with postal damage which definitely was not my fault), I state that an item is posted at the buyers cost and risk (but everything gets properly packed for transit).  If the buyer doesn't opt for insurance, that is up to them and loss or damage is not my fault. To be honest, most folk do opt for insurance. Funnily enough, I bought a bass from BC that arrived wrapped in a bin bag and it was perfect! 

Guitars and more expensive items, I often ask the buyer to arrange their own courier, collect or meet up. In the post, they pay exactly what it costs and they can choose to take out adequate insurance if needs be. Trying to get a company to ship a bass and insure it without a hard case is virtually impossible now in my experience. Check the small print as they will take your money but the item will not be insured. I did find a company but the price was around £37. Folk often don't want to pay that much, plus buy a hard case.

Probably in this case, both parties should have checked the the postal terms and come to an agreement but I'd more than likely side with the buyer if no disclaimer was added to the initial sales thread.

[fleabag]

Any seller is responsible for lost or damaged items.  The insurance a seller should take out when posting is for the SELLERS'  protection, not the buyers'

It is therefore the seller's  responsibility.   Seller refunds you and seller claims off the the insurance. Thats why insurance exists.

The seller owes you the full amount, but sadly, you paid by Paypal F+F  and there's no charge back if using F+F.

If he doesn't refund you the full amount, you're stuck.   One thing though, if you paid by credit card on your Paypal account, and Paypal wont refund you, claim off your credit card

Edited August 18, 2018 by fleabag

[BigRedX]

31 minutes ago, fleabag said:

One thing though, if you paid by credit card on your Paypal account, and Paypal wont refund you, claim off your credit card

You might find a problem with this if the Credit Card company does their due diligence, as PayPal Friends & Family is for sending money for friends and family not for buying goods and services. As far as the CC company are concerned the money arrived at its intended destination and that is the end of the transaction.

[fleabag]

Good point.  But i would still try the CC company.  Can't lose anything by trying

[BigRedX]

12 minutes ago, fleabag said:

Good point.  But i would still try the CC company.  Can't lose anything by trying

But if they are successful then PayPal might become unduly interested in the transaction with consequences for both the buyer and the seller. After all we know PayPal don't like losing out on their fees. 

[fleabag]

If they were successful, what consequences do you see happening ?  Accounts closed maybe ?

Edited August 18, 2018 by fleabag

[T-Bay]

3 hours ago, fleabag said:

Any seller is responsible for lost or damaged items.  The insurance a seller should take out when posting is for the SELLERS'  protection, not the buyers'

It is therefore the seller's  responsibility.   Seller refunds you and seller claims off the the insurance. Thats why insurance exists.

The seller owes you the full amount, but sadly, you paid by Paypal F+F  and there's no charge back if using F+F.

If he doesn't refund you the full amount, you're stuck.   One thing though, if you paid by credit card on your Paypal account, and Paypal wont refund you, claim off your credit card

Surely not if the seller points out the risks and suggests the buyer is responsible IF they choose to proceed? That way you can take it or leave it. I am selling a petrol tank for a classic car at the moment and clearly stated pick up only for obvious reasons. A guy has been in touch who wants it, I initially refused as I didn’t think anyone would carry it but he is confident he knows somewhere that will and it not require packing by myself. If they turn up and won’t carry it or damage it, I don’t see that as my responsibility at all. The OPs case seems very different though and I would expect the seller to cover this. If people ask for F&F I sometimes do it for small sums but for anything larger I just add the percentage on for fees. It’s only a few pounds and gives that protection should something like this happen.

[krispn]

The seller has sold some other items and as a BC'er I had few qualms as it all appeared to be an easy transaction.

The guy just doesn't want to be out of pocket and I get that and had it been a smaller sum I may have split the losses but I'm needing the full refund to finish my bass build.

[fleabag]

2 hours ago, T-Bay said:

Surely not if the seller points out the risks and suggests the buyer is responsible IF they choose to proceed?

I'm speaking purely on Ebay purchases via Paypal, so maybe i should have stated, but the seller is still responsible for getting an item to the buyer on posted goods, no matter who arranges the postage. I checked this with Ebay Community Q&A as i thought  i could pass the responsibilty to the buyer of posting items if the buyer arranged it.  It's not true.

Getting the goods to a buyer is not the buyers responsibility, even if they arrange it

Private sales off of Ebay, say on BC,  and Paypal was used,  maybe different, but Paypal tend to refund buyers if the the seller cannot provide tracking details.  In this case, the buyer would have proof ( assuming they asked for tracking option ) that the item was not delivered

Edited August 18, 2018 by fleabag

[T-Bay]

13 minutes ago, fleabag said:

I'm speaking purely on Ebay purchases via Paypal, so maybe i should have stated, but the seller is still responsible for getting an item to the buyer on posted goods, no matter who arranges the postage. I checked this with Ebay Community Q&A as i thought  i could pass the responsibilty to the buyer of posting items if the buyer arranged it.  It's not true.

Getting the goods to a buyer is not the buyers responsibility, even if they arrange it

Private sales off of Ebay, say on BC,  and Paypal was used,  maybe different, but Paypal tend to refund buyers if the the seller cannot provide tracking details.  In this case, the buyer would have proof ( assuming they asked for tracking option ) that the item was not delivered

That’s interesting, does that apply if you list it as collection only?  I don’t accept PayPal for pick up only items anyway, too many people being scammed on that one as it is.