Hybrid amps - yes or no?

[Mikey R]

On 27/08/2018 at 22:30, LukeFRC said:

.... and the FOH is coming from the DI box the tech uses...

They put bass through the FOH??!! Thats news to me!

[Chienmortbb]

I have nothing against a hybrid but I cannot see the point,. Many hybrids have a valve front end but most people think the valve sound comes mostly from the power amp. It probably makes more sende to have SS front end and valve power amp but the weight and size saving is minimal.

[taunton-hobbit]

I've got an old Orange 120 pa with a transistor front end - it's currently out for a service & revalve,

going to be very interesting once I get it back,

I believe it's a Mat Mathias/Radiocraft (Huddersfield) build.

☺️

 

[The59Sound]

When I have a roadie... I will have an SVT rig.

Until then, my Shuttle rig is more than suffice!

[AScheck9]

There's a similar-ISH topic on a competitor forum headlined "How can class D amps be tubier than tube amps" or something...

The genz benz streamliner series gets a LOT of love in that thread which is great because it's the second ever amp that I bought... when I knew nothing about amps. 

It's still the best amp I've played through (opinion), and that's what I've based my answers on for the most part. I still own it. 

[The59Sound]

The Streamliner is a great head. The Shuttle I have reminds me of a world class studio preamp with a hint of valvey goodness at the back. Super clean punchy tone, definitely not an Ampeg!

[la bam]

id love an all valve amp, but cost and reliability on the road kind of put me off, and the fact you have to let them cool before moving wasnt a good idea for festivals etc.

i do like the hybrids (i have an abm600), theyre not as rich as an all valve affair, but can do a good job and give everything you want - decent sound, fair weight and reliability.

but for me, technology has moved on, and im currently creating my rig of tech 21 vt bass rack and power amp. the amount of realistic valve emulation you can get from this tiny 1u rack is unbelievable and very realistic.

likewise the markbass evo i have also does a fantastic job and thats only 3kg !

id love something like an ampeg v4 etc but was put off by the fact the di doesnt send the valve sound to the desk when cranked, just clean, which kind of defeated the point. You could mic it up, but thats more hassle and risk of knocking the mic over in small spaces etc. At least with the vt i can send as much tube emulation as i want to the desk from di.

what really put me off the heavy valve amps is the fact that everything goes to the desk anyway....then is replicated on a class D amp anyway in the PA (unless we use our big PA) so it seemed a bit pointless.

the next thing though is almost back to the same dilemma - do i power the vt rack with an A/B amp or class D, or are there freely available cheap valve power amps available?

[EBS_freak]

I would always assess an amp for how it sounds, regardless of whether it's tube, hybrid or solid state. I have to say, on guitar at least, I used to be a tube purist. On bass, I have always been in the solid state camp... as I'm not a big fan of grind and sag on bass.

Having said all of this, I sold my valve amps and replaced them with a Kemper... and haven't looked back. I'm a firm believer that modelling has now got to the point that the addition of valves or not is really not a bother to me.

[la bam]

id agree for big gigs valves are pretty unimportant, as they can be replicated better than ever, and sit in the mix great.

however, for small gigs, i can still to this day remember 2 bass sounds in a pub that blew me away - a fender bassman and an ampeg svt. such a warm sound. but that was because we were about 20 foot away from them and they werent using pa for everything etc.

[wateroftyne]

If I was consistently running a DI to a decent FOH supported by decent monitors, I really wouldn't be that bothered what I used.

But while I'm rely on what's behind me for my own enjoyment of the gig, it's got to be something tactile for me. Solid state seems to have it, with or without tubes (I'll politely skip my thoughts on the commonly available Class D heads I've tried), but the WB100 valve head took it up a gear - it was so quick and responsive. It was like a direct connection from my fingers to the back of my knees.

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by wateroftyne

[EBS_freak]

10 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

(I'll politely skip my thoughts on Class D)

It's not class D... it's a certain class D 😜

[wateroftyne]

4 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

It's not class D... it's a certain class D 😜

Hmm.. I've had a few in my time 😄

[Chienmortbb]

12 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

If I was consistently running a DI to a decent FOH supported by decent monitors, I really wouldn't be that bothered what I used.

But while I'm rely on what's behind me for my own enjoyment of the gig, it's got to be something tactile for me. Solid state seems to have it, with or without tubes (I'll politely skip my thoughts on Class D), but the WB100 valve head took it up a gear - it was so quick and responsive. It was like a direct connection from my fingers to the back of my knees.

 

I took my home made 1x12 cab (The Basschat 1x12 Mk2) to Open Mic night about a year ago and another bassist played through it. he was blown away by my amp. A little Ashdown MyBaas 220. This outputs 100W into an 8 ohm Cabinet. I told the Ampeg using bassist that it was the cabinet not the amp. The cabinet has a 5" ports and the amount of air that goes through the port and into your leg is astonishing. Massive trouser flapping. It just goes to show that you have to look at the rig as a whole.

[Phil Starr]

34 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

If I was consistently running a DI to a decent FOH supported by decent monitors, I really wouldn't be that bothered what I used.

But while I'm rely on what's behind me for my own enjoyment of the gig, it's got to be something tactile for me. Solid state seems to have it, with or without tubes (I'll politely skip my thoughts on Class D), but the WB100 valve head took it up a gear - it was so quick and responsive. It was like a direct connection from my fingers to the back of my knees.

 

You probably get fed up with people saying this and it isn't meant personally. I've always said if you listen to a rig and love the sound then it's right whatever people say on Basschat. I've also listened to some of the vids you've put up over the years and it sounds good to me, and you are right about your own rig but there's a but coming....

BUT, the decent FOH and decent monitors are probably class D.

[wateroftyne]

6 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

BUT, the decent FOH and decent monitors are probably class D.

BUT the decent FOH and decent monitors probably don't use off-the-shelf car radio ICEpower modules like the amps we're talking about do :-)

[Phil Starr]

1 minute ago, wateroftyne said:

BUT the decent FOH and decent monitors probably don't use off-the-shelf car radio ICEpower modules like the amps we're talking about do 🙂

More probably they have decent power supplies and are being used within their limits and with terrific drive units in the speakers. My point is however that there is nothing wrong with class D it's about implementation and I wouldn't want you putting people off seeing if they suit their needs. 

It's the science teacher in me, or the pedant.  I can't bear it when someone says something which isn't supported by evidence. If you've tried all the class D offerings form Ashdown, Markbass, Fender and so on and found them wanting then that's fine but in reality I don't think you could reliably distinguish between a switch mode and class A/B amp. You can surely see you kind of contradicted yourself in your own answer

[wateroftyne]

6 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

More probably they have decent power supplies and are being used within their limits and with terrific drive units in the speakers. My point is however that there is nothing wrong with class D it's about implementation and I wouldn't want you putting people off seeing if they suit their needs. 

It's the science teacher in me, or the pedant.  I can't bear it when someone says something which isn't supported by evidence. If you've tried all the class D offerings form Ashdown, Markbass, Fender and so on and found them wanting then that's fine but in reality I don't think you could reliably distinguish between a switch mode and class A/B amp. You can surely see you kind of contradicted yourself in your own answer 

My comments are based on what I've used over the years, all of which seem to share ICEpower modules. Which might well be an implementation issue - I certainly don't have the technical background.

...and it should go without saying that all my posts on this subject should come with an 'IME' suffix.

[Muzz]

There was a big generational change of power modules a couple of years ago, which IME changed the game: I've had more than a dozen Class D amps, and the newer power module design (in the Magellan, the Mesa Subways, the Darkglass 900, and several more) is a different beast entirely.

It's worth bearing in mind.

[EBS_freak]

Powersoft class D amps.

I think  it's safe to say, there's no problems with class D.

 

[LukeFRC]

16 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Powersoft class D amps.

I think  it's safe to say, there's no problems with class D.

 

The first generation Tecamp Pumas used Powersoft Digimod units in them - not as high tech as some of their other stuff but really brill - they had a different sound signature to the ice power powered amps, felt less brittle 

[afterimage]

I like both, I  have a Bergantino Bamp and a new addition Ampeg pf50 t 

Plus a Traynor Yba200 head 200 watts 

[The59Sound]

I think sometimes, people listen with their eyes, not their ears. 

[Lozz196]

20 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

The first generation Tecamp Pumas used Powersoft Digimod units in them - not as high tech as some of their other stuff but really brill - they had a different sound signature to the ice power powered amps, felt less brittle 

I used one of these at the SE Bass Bash Cab Shootout, had a very warm responsive sound to it, as you say not much brittleness about it.

[PatrickJ]

I've been reading this thread intently as I'm about to order a Hybrid head. 

As much as I'd love an all tube amp, class D hybrids are so much more practical and significantly cheaper .  I considered going straight solid state but to my ears the valve preamps add a touch of warmth and body to the tone that I like.

[Quilly]

I wonder why Ashdown never made a 200w valve head to compete with orange AD200b, it seems like the perfect power rating for a valve amp