Blade Sharpening, a Professional Approach

[SpondonBassed]

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

The general policy is to let nature take its course, and have topics 'sink or swim' depending on the  frequency of posts added. Any subject not attracting replies would then, naturally, sink down (but would still be found by searching, of course...). Some topics, such as warnings about Paypal scams, are of permanent interest, and would normally not, in themselves, solicit replies; hence the pinning. It's also true that, when pinned, topics tend to become 'part of the furniture', and no longer receive any visits at all, because they're pinned..!
Having said all that, and recognising the quality and value of the OP, I'll pin this, as it's in the proper section for those interested. On my head be it, then; let the pinning commence..!

Cheers Douglas.

[SpondonBassed]

The strop is something that I have never understood.

I know it as a strap that was used for keeping an edge on the old hand razors that barbers still use but I know nothing as to whether it is used with abrasive or if it is abrasive in itself.  Now that it's been mentioned here a couple of times, I am off to find out some more.

I am also intrigued by the aforementioned palm slapping technique.  I also saw it mentioned on a webpage about the Scary Sharp technique after @Jimothey mentioned it.

I have an oilstone that came with my late father's tool kit.  It looks like it is made of two different grades of stone, one on either side.  Is that possible?  I am sure it could use a dressing but I am not sure yet whether to do that or take up an alternative technique.  This topic helps a lot in making that decision.

[LukeFRC]

Utterly OT but my grandad gave me his oil stone the other week so turn of C19th in its old wooden box - only used it to sharpen a chisel but might rethink my technique following Christine’s OP

[Christine]

2 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

The strop is something that I have never understood.

I know it as a strap that was used for keeping an edge on the old hand razors that barbers still use but I know nothing as to whether it is used with abrasive or if it is abrasive in itself.  Now that it's been mentioned here a couple of times, I am off to find out some more.

I am also intrigued by the aforementioned palm slapping technique.  I also saw it mentioned on a webpage about the Scary Sharp technique after @Jimothey mentioned it.

I have an oilstone that came with my late father's tool kit.  It looks like it is made of two different grades of stone, one on either side.  Is that possible?  I am sure it could use a dressing but I am not sure yet whether to do that or take up an alternative technique.  This topic helps a lot in making that decision.

Razors are specialist tools that have an extreme hollow grind, I assume they are sharpened often on some sort of stone but given that keen edge by stopping on a leather strap. They have some form of rouge on them that has become impregnated so provide a very gentle polishing of the edge which as part of the way the razor is used doesn't require that flat back most woodworking edge tools do.

The combination stone is a carborundum stone that needs oil as a lubricant, useful for the jobbing joiner/carpenter who can't carry a specialist sharpening setup. To be any use they really need to be flat but a stonemason can flatten it quickly if you want, then use the same technique as above but don't expect the same edge as with more modern types of stone. It will be sharp enough for planing softwoods and most hardwoods but it won't be able to give that shimmering surface a truly sharp tool will and will require more sanding afterwards (this is all about speed at the end of the day).

I read the scary sharp thing, yes well... It will work but not in my shop especially if I'm paying your wages. Hand slapping, I don't know what to say, honestly, it seems it helps get rid of the burr but it should already be gone after the 6000 stone all that realistically does is break any burr off, your hand isn't an abrasive. I suppose it make someone feel more like am old school master or something. Actually you can buy am 8000 grit waterstone, a lot finer than the 6000 I recommend, it is used after the 6000, it also needs a secondary stone called a Nagura stone which helps build up a slurry on the surface. The 8000 grit will add to the overall sharpness, I have one (somewhere) but it gives no real advantage over the edge given by the 6000 grit so it is a waste of time in my eyes and any extra sharpness is probably lost after the first pass of a plane over timber.

Remember though that the wetstone grinder is part of this method in that it keeps your blade in that easy to sharpen state, it is THE most important tool/machine in my workshop

[Jimothey]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

Razors are specialist tools that have an extreme hollow grind, I assume they are sharpened often on some sort of stone but given that keen edge by stopping on a leather strap. They have some form of rouge on them that has become impregnated so provide a very gentle polishing of the edge which as part of the way the razor is used doesn't require that flat back most woodworking edge tools do.

The combination stone is a carborundum stone that needs oil as a lubricant, useful for the jobbing joiner/carpenter who can't carry a specialist sharpening setup. To be any use they really need to be flat but a stonemason can flatten it quickly if you want, then use the same technique as above but don't expect the same edge as with more modern types of stone. It will be sharp enough for planing softwoods and most hardwoods but it won't be able to give that shimmering surface a truly sharp tool will and will require more sanding afterwards (this is all about speed at the end of the day).

I read the scary sharp thing, yes well... It will work but not in my shop especially if I'm paying your wages. Hand slapping, I don't know what to say, honestly, it seems it helps get rid of the burr but it should already be gone after the 6000 stone all that realistically does is break any burr off, your hand isn't an abrasive. I suppose it make someone feel more like am old school master or something. Actually you can buy am 8000 grit waterstone, a lot finer than the 6000 I recommend, it is used after the 6000, it also needs a secondary stone called a Nagura stone which helps build up a slurry on the surface. The 8000 grit will add to the overall sharpness, I have one (somewhere) but it gives no real advantage over the edge given by the 6000 grit so it is a waste of time in my eyes and any extra sharpness is probably lost after the first pass of a plane over timber.

Remember though that the wetstone grinder is part of this method in that it keeps your blade in that easy to sharpen state, it is THE most important tool/machine in my workshop

I agree with what your saying re the burr but I can't see how just pulling the chisel backwards will remove the burr as the burr will be on the opposite edge to sharpened edge and if you keep on sharpening it it will eventually break the burr off anyway hence the palm slapping might save you time or do you mean then after sharpening turning the chisel over so the back is flush with the stone then pull backwards to remove the burr?? 

I got taught how to sharpen chisels and blades Inc palm slapping by a gentleman in his 80's with over 60 years cabinet making experience so who am I to question his technique and at the Good Woodworking show about 8 years ago Kevin Leys and Andy Standing did a masterclass on a few topics and 1 of them was Sharpening and that's the method they used to remove the burr so I don't know what to say maybe it's just the old "there's more than 1 way to skin cat" who can say which way is right or wrong if it works for you then that's all that matters 😀

Edited September 2, 2018 by Jimothey

[SpondonBassed]

I am happier to avoid wafting freshly sharpened implements across my palm if I can.  It's good to have the choice.

[Christine]

6 minutes ago, Jimothey said:

I agree with what your saying re the burr but I can see how just pulling the chisel backwards will remove the burr as the burr will be on the opposite edge to sharpened edge or do you mean then after sharpening turning the chisel over so the back is flush with the stone then that will remove the burr?? 

I got taught how to sharpen chisels and blades Inc palm slapping by a gentleman in his 80's with over 60 years cabinet making experience so who am I to question his technique and at the Good Woodworking show about 10 years ago  Kevin Leys and Andy Standing did a masterclass on a few topics and 1 of them was Sharpening and that's the method they used to remove the burr so I don't know what to say maybe it's just the old "there's more than 1 way to skin cat" who can say which way is right or wrong if it works for you then that's all that matters 😀

You hone both edges, the bevel by finding the hollow and lifting slightly before dragging back and the back of the blade by holding flat and dragging back, four times each alternated for times or sometimes five but until the burr has gone. That should be plenty sharp enough after a 6000 grit stone if nothing else why do you need to waste time wiping a steel blade across your hand trying to remove a burr that should have already gone. Honestly this method is used in most professional cabinet shops, it was taught to me by my friend the late Alan Peters (massive name drop), it is used today in the workshops of David Savage (another name drop), Malcolm Clubley, Matthew Burt, Lucinda Leech, The Edward Barnsley Workshops, only because it is fast, easy and reliable.

My only aim here is to share a fast easy and reliable method of sharpening tools, there are other methods and anyone is free to use any one they choose

[Christine]

12 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

I am happier to avoid wafting freshly sharpened implements across my palm if I can.  It's good to have the choice.

It is actually safer than it sounds, try it and see if it makes a difference, I have and it didn't, not a bit.

I have tried most methods in my time, I've even bought diamond and ceramic stones, they just clog eventually but are very good initially but cost a small fortune.

[Jimothey]

25 minutes ago, Christine said:

It is actually safer than it sounds, try it and see if it makes a difference, I have and it didn't, not a bit.

I have tried most methods in my time, I've even bought diamond and ceramic stones, they just clog eventually but are very good initially but cost a small fortune.

I agree with you I've sharpened chisels palm slapped and not and as you say there's no difference between the two it's just because I've done it that way for so long I now do it without thinking

I'm the same I have tried nearly every different new technique but I do use the Diamond ones as they are really convenient to use as a quick thing when I'm out on site, the worst I've ever bought was the Trend fast-track what a waste of £50!!

Edited September 2, 2018 by Jimothey

[SpondonBassed]

I thought it might be helpful to link out to your new topic on Bench Plane Tuning Christine.  It's much appreciated.

[Christine]

On 02/09/2018 at 12:51, Dad3353 said:

Our Eldest is interested in these methods, as he's started making his own guitars; I'll see if I can acquire a wet grinding wheel for modest expense. My own personal requirements are for sharpening to surgical degree my modelling blades (mostly X-Acto n°11 or similar...). Whilst not needing the same 'elbows dug into ribs' technique, there must be a better way than my present system, consisting of leather stropping, using green paste/wax stuff. Sometimes I get a good cut, but it's hit'n'miss. The blades, even from new, are not apt for cutting the balsa woods I use, and they dull all too quickly, resulting in torn wood if they're not changed. Anyone got any tips, then, for keeping these types of blades at their finest..? Thanks in advance...

I was thinking about this. Surgical tools are ground to sharpness not polished, they rely on a microscopic toothed edge. Maybe the answer is to just use a 1000 grit stone at 7.5 degrees each side in single alternate strokes and see how that behaves. 

I tend to use surgical blades only as marking knives or for marquetry very occasionally and have just used the leather wheel on my whetstone grinder when needed then chuck the blade after a few goes 

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

I was thinking about this...

That makes sense, thanks for that.

[Gilmourisgod]

Christine! I blundered onto your thread here on Basschat, loved your builds threads on Talkbass. Nicely succinct sharpening tutorial, I’ve been using the “scary sharp” sandpaper on glass method, still not expert at it though. I use a Veritas angle guide, but still often end up sharpening chisels out of square. How do you keep square by hand, or does the grinder rest hold it square to the stone? 

[Christine]

Hiya!!

How you keeping?

Yes the grinder tends to keep the blade square and then when actually honing you take so little off it stays square by default

[Soledad]

On 27/08/2018 at 17:59, Jimothey said:

Have you ever tried the Scary Sharp system as one of my mate swears by it and it does live up to the name!!

Excellent piece Christine - a subject that causes more arguments on woodie forums than any other, so good stuff.
I have used 'Scarysharp' quite a bit - you can skip quite a few grades so it's faster than it may sound. What's good is it's low cost to get going - it's easy to spend loads on sharpening gear but the 3M film (aka Scarysharp) is a really affordable way into great edges. I mount it onto glass sheets I got from the local glazier dirt cheap, cut to size - I made the edges safe but they'll do that for you. Or find the local stone worktop place and ask to raid their skip - what those guys call offcuts... ! And the quarz stuff is mirror flat - that'll surely do.
If interested check Workshop Heaven, Matthew does a good sample set for a tenner.

https://www.workshopheaven.com/3m-sharpening-film-sample-pack.html

Interested to see your Record wetstone Christine - I gave a Tormek away a few years ago (bit silly) but had been seriously considering a 10" Record - are you happy with it?

btw - not a luthier, but lifelong furniture/cabinet maker and big handtool user

 

[Christine]

On 13/02/2019 at 17:30, Soledad said:

Excellent piece Christine - a subject that causes more arguments on woodie forums than any other, so good stuff.
I have used 'Scarysharp' quite a bit - you can skip quite a few grades so it's faster than it may sound. What's good is it's low cost to get going - it's easy to spend loads on sharpening gear but the 3M film (aka Scarysharp) is a really affordable way into great edges. I mount it onto glass sheets I got from the local glazier dirt cheap, cut to size - I made the edges safe but they'll do that for you. Or find the local stone worktop place and ask to raid their skip - what those guys call offcuts... ! And the quarz stuff is mirror flat - that'll surely do.
If interested check Workshop Heaven, Matthew does a good sample set for a tenner.

https://www.workshopheaven.com/3m-sharpening-film-sample-pack.html

Interested to see your Record wetstone Christine - I gave a Tormek away a few years ago (bit silly) but had been seriously considering a 10" Record - are you happy with it?

btw - not a luthier, but lifelong furniture/cabinet maker and big handtool user

 

Sorry for the tardy response, we've been away for a while.

I think although I do prefer waterstones I suppose it doesn't really matter what medium you use to actually polish the edge. What I really wanted to get over was the method of not needing to use a jig to get the angle and how the edge is created. Using a jig is all well and good but it is a phaff as is sharpening in general, the easier and quicker it is the more likely it is you'll actually do it.

The Tormeks are brilliant, we had ours for years in daily use, in the end rust got the better of it. If I had limitless funds then it would be the choice every time over any other grinder including the Sharpenset which I never got on with on the occasions I got to use one. The Record is not far behind and at the cost very good value. It comes complete with a diamond truing tool and cleaner so you can keep the surface true all the time.It cuts quite quickly, not as fast as the Tormek but not far behind  by any means. I'll buy another if this one ever goes west

[honza992]

@Christine I've taken your advice and invested in a Record Power whetstone, and I have to say it's something of a revelation.  As is your suggestion of hand-held sharpening on a whetstone.  No jigs, no hassle, takes 20 seconds....

The only issue I have is that at the moment I havent got the RP grinder set up properly.  When I grind, it's not doing a it perpendicular to the chisel, if that makes sense.  Here's a photo, you can see the surface it's grinding isn't straight........off the top of your head, what would you try adjusting?

Not the easiest it see as it's only on a 3mm chisel, but I thnk you can see the ground surface isn't at 90 degrees to the side of the chisel. 

[Christine]

Narrow blades like that are more difficult admittedly. What to check Look at the casting on the guide, make sure that is perfectly flat on both surfaces. When you put the chisel in the guide, spend a couple of extra seconds setting the guides clamping height on both sides first so when you finally put it in position and clamp the chisel it is being clamped with an even force not one side more than the other. Check the chisel itself to make sure the top surface is parallel to the bottom one. The chisel sides are probably tapered so you cant use them as a reference only the bottom face

Glad you bought a grinder, honestly it's the one tool I wouldn't be without in the workshop. It really does make sharpening easy, a pleasure in itself that can be used as a means of briefly relaxing away from the concentration of the actual work not as a means of adding more stress to the day

[Soledad]

4 hours ago, Christine said:

Check the chisel itself to make sure the top surface is parallel to the bottom one.

May I add - the one surface that is reference/datum is the back (the non-bevel face). This must be dead true to the stone. You can ignore all other chisel faces and surfaces. So the back face must be dead flat to the clamp and the clamp must be true to the axis of the grinding stone. 
I'm more familiar with the Tormek but I think they are about the same. If the chisel is even slightly out of perpendicular, or if it isn't exactly flat to the clamp, you'll get this error. In practice adjust the angle of the chisel in the clamp (tiny amounts mind) and adjust left and right clamp screw (slightly tighten one, release the other to compensate) - in your pic the right screw needs tightening, left off a bit. OR, the chisel needs a tads rotation anti-clock in the clamp.
Basically you are a lot closer than it looks, small tweaks will get you there and narrow chisel tend to be more tricky.

edit, SORRY ! - flip that. The bevel is facing camera but when mounted is facing the stone, so I'm back-to-front. Once clamp is mounted on its rail it's the left edge of bevel that is further from the stone. So slight adjustments of left screw tighter, right off a tiny bit, and / or chisel adjusted a tiny bit clockwise. Basically reverse of what I said above. 😮

Edited February 15, 2020 by Soledad

[Christine]

25 minutes ago, Soledad said:

May I add - the one surface that is reference/datum is the back (the non-bevel face). This must be dead true to the stone. You can ignore all other chisel faces and surfaces. So the back face must be dead flat to the clamp and the clamp must be true to the axis of the grinding stone. 
I'm more familiar with the Tormek but I think they are about the same. If the chisel is even slightly out of perpendicular, or if it isn't exactly flat to the clamp, you'll get this error. In practice adjust the angle of the chisel in the clamp (tiny amounts mind) and adjust left and right clamp screw (slightly tighten one, release the other to compensate) - in your pic the right screw needs tightening, left off a bit. OR, the chisel needs a tads rotation anti-clock in the clamp.
Basically you are a lot closer than it looks, small tweaks will get you there and narrow chisel tend to be more tricky.

The reason I say to check the top surface is because if it isn't parallel it will tend to cause the narrow chisel to clamp on a tilt instead of the bottom surface (back as you rightly say)

[Soledad]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

The reason I say to check the top surface is because if it isn't parallel it will tend to cause the narrow chisel to clamp on a tilt instead of the bottom surface (back as you rightly say)

agreed 👍

[Grangur]

Many thanks for the great thread @Christine. I'm a wood turner, so my needs and approach is different in some respects. I use a grinder for my gouges and scrapers. What a would add, for anyone using a grinder, is don't ever use a grey wheel. They eat blades. Get the wheel changed to a white wheel.

I have also been using an oil stone. But given what you say, I'll use my Japanese water stones more. I'll also get a diamond sharpener too for my hollowing tools.

For stripping what I also use is an MDF wheel with chrome cleaning paste, it really smooths the blade nicely.

Thanks again.

[jimbobothy]

… I specked a Robert Sorby Pro Edge for my work for chisel sharpening etc. Chose that over anything else as it leaves a flat grind. Will see how it works out I suppose 👍🏼

[Owen]

Hey Christine! Come back!

[fleabag]

Indeed - hasnt visited for 18 months

 

Could be life got in the way, as sometimes happens