BigRedX Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, mic mac moe said: It's a broad subject, this. Reading as a topic covers such a basic grasp as picking up licks, lessons and basic arps and scales from books and magazines all the way up to a full on chick corea score and beyond. For my money, I'm glad that I learned to read, because I'd like to know rather than be ignorant. Can you imagine not bothering learning to reverse in your car? TBH honest all those concepts are pretty alien to me including the one about reversing your car (I'm an appalling driver and consequently for mine and the safety of other road users, it's been over 20 years since I last got behind the wheel of a car) 😉 I don't think I've ever played a scale in my life. Sure I know where all the notes are on a keyboard or fretboard, but actually playing scales doesn't hold any musical interest for me. Similarly with "licks" and arpeggios. I see this "building block" approach to playing all the time usually from guitarists when they are "improvising" a solo. It looks impressive the first time you hear it, but by the third solo you realise that all they are doing is rearranging the same musical phrases in slightly different orders and in different keys depending on the underlying chord structure. When I'm writing I can normally hear what I want to play in my head, so I'm not being bound by patterns my fingers are comfortable with. If I do notice that I am reusing elements from something previous, I'll deliberately go out of my way to break the pattern to come up with something new. I does mean that as I'm writing a new part for whatever instrument I'm playing, it will take me a little longer to get up to speed while I'm searching for the perfect notes and training my fingers to play in patterns they are unaccustomed to. Ultimately I think it results in better songwriting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 being able to read/knowing music theory does not stop you being able to play by ear/jam etc. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBP Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MacDaddy said: being able to read/knowing music theory does not stop you being able to play by ear/jam etc. This is the point, reading and theory are just more tools for the tools box. If we go back in time to when early man started banging bones together and his mate jumped up and said 'that sounds cool lets jam, you bang the bones and I will bash on this dead mammoth' music was always passed on aurally, then people started writing it down because back then that was the best recording they could get. That developed into the written music system we have today, but everyone got on fine before that. Today we have so many ways to communicate music to each other that being able to sight read is far less important than it used to be. Though I think a good understanding of music theory can only be a good thing... but each to their own. But it has definitely improved my playing, both in what I play and how I communicate with other musicians. Edited August 31, 2018 by JBP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 25 minutes ago, JBP said: ...being able to site read is far less important than it used to be... Depends on the site, though. ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, MacDaddy said: being able to read/knowing music theory does not stop you being able to play by ear/jam etc. It doesn't. But knowing theory, and having the notes under your fingers enables you to play by ear and jam much more effectively. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 It's all horses for courses. Is it useful? Undoubtedly. Is it important? It depends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 hours ago, BigRedX said: TBH honest all those concepts are pretty alien to me including the one about reversing your car (I'm an appalling driver and consequently for mine and the safety of other road users, it's been over 20 years since I last got behind the wheel of a car) 😉 I don't think I've ever played a scale in my life. Sure I know where all the notes are on a keyboard or fretboard, but actually playing scales doesn't hold any musical interest for me. Similarly with "licks" and arpeggios. I see this "building block" approach to playing all the time usually from guitarists when they are "improvising" a solo. It looks impressive the first time you hear it, but by the third solo you realise that all they are doing is rearranging the same musical phrases in slightly different orders and in different keys depending on the underlying chord structure. When I'm writing I can normally hear what I want to play in my head, so I'm not being bound by patterns my fingers are comfortable with. If I do notice that I am reusing elements from something previous, I'll deliberately go out of my way to break the pattern to come up with something new. I does mean that as I'm writing a new part for whatever instrument I'm playing, it will take me a little longer to get up to speed while I'm searching for the perfect notes and training my fingers to play in patterns they are unaccustomed to. Ultimately I think it results in better songwriting. I once played for a songwriter in Canada. His son was the drummer. This guy had a similar philosophy to yours. No scales, no arpeggios(?) theory ppffft. His songs were good though and his guitar playing was excellent. Except, when he tried including stops or stabs at the intervals he had in his head, it all went south. He wouldn't (couldn't) count and for me and the drummer it was a nightmare, bordering on farcical. You need to know the standard in music before you can alter away from it. It's like me fixing a car, never bothered learning about mechanics, but I know how it's meant to run!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, mic mac moe said: I once played for a songwriter in Canada. His son was the drummer. This guy had a similar philosophy to yours. No scales, no arpeggios(?) theory ppffft. His songs were good though and his guitar playing was excellent. Except, when he tried including stops or stabs at the intervals he had in his head, it all went south. He wouldn't (couldn't) count and for me and the drummer it was a nightmare, bordering on farcical. You need to know the standard in music before you can alter away from it. It's like me fixing a car, never bothered learning about mechanics, but I know how it's meant to run!! I doubt that's directly related to a lack of theoretical understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, wateroftyne said: I doubt that's directly related to a lack of theoretical understanding. Well, yeah it is. If you are only playing what's in your head without learning about a theoretical framework, you would always struggle to play with others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, mic mac moe said: Well, yeah it is. If you are only playing what's in your head without learning about a theoretical framework, you would always struggle to play with others What do you consider a 'theoretical framework'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 At least counting to 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, mic mac moe said: At least counting to 4 Err... OK. I stand by my previous comment 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, wateroftyne said: Err... OK. I stand by my previous comment 🙂 Err... Ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Clearly, as a bassist who has played with Knopfler, Lindisfarne and numerous other elite from the northeast of England, this lack of theory hasn't set you back too much, Michael? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, Paul S said: Clearly, as a bassist who has played with Knopfler, Lindisfarne and numerous other elite from the northeast of England, this lack of theory hasn't set you back too much, Michael? Ha.. I'm fine until I get to a song with stops or stabs. Then it all falls apart (apparently) 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 If someone brought a song to the band. You would play with a certain degree of understanding. The strops etc would be all squared away as standard timing dictates. And if said songwriter starts saying"no, it goes like this", but what he/she is saying doesn't make sense, then that stems from a lack of understanding on their part. If they are wanting a gap that's 13.5/16 notes long because that's what's in their head, then how do you work with that? Well, you try and standardise the gap into the way you understand music to work. Either that or you bend your own brain and that of the majority of your band mates who have also bothered to learn, around the crazy assed gap, written by someone ignorant of the general standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, Paul S said: Clearly, as a bassist who has played with Knopfler, Lindisfarne and numerous other elite from the northeast of England, this lack of theory hasn't set you back too much, Michael? Ooh the celeb card Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, mic mac moe said: If they are wanting a gap that's 13.5/16 notes long because that's what's in their head, then how do you work with that? The band learn it as the songwriter intends. And if it sounds cack, they persuade him/her to standardise it into something that feels right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, wateroftyne said: Ha.. I'm fine until I get to a song with stops or stabs. Then it all falls apart (apparently) 😄 You're missing my point mate. And I do respect your pedigree, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, mic mac moe said: You're missing my point mate. And I do respect your pedigree, by the way. I probably am, and thank you. 'Right place, right time' can never be underestimated 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, wateroftyne said: The band learn it as the songwriter intends. And if it sounds cack, they persuade him/her to standardise it into something that feels right. And when what sounds right, or standard, clashes with what's in the songwriters head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, mic mac moe said: And when what sounds right, or standard, clashes with what's in the songwriters head? You learn it as the songwriter intends, which can be done either by following the dots, or just having a good ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, mic mac moe said: If someone brought a song to the band. You would play with a certain degree of understanding. The strops etc would be all squared away as standard timing dictates. And if said songwriter starts saying"no, it goes like this", but what he/she is saying doesn't make sense, then that stems from a lack of understanding on their part. If they are wanting a gap that's 13.5/16 notes long because that's what's in their head, then how do you work with that? Well, you try and standardise the gap into the way you understand music to work. Either that or you bend your own brain and that of the majority of your band mates who have also bothered to learn, around the crazy assed gap, written by someone ignorant of the general standard So he wanted you to make a gap 27 32nd notes long and you couldn't count it or feel it consistently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic mac moe Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, wateroftyne said: You learn it as the songwriter intends, which can be done either by following the dots, or just having a good ear. And if you don't read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 You need to read all of my post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.