Elwray Basses - First Bolt-on 4 string

[Guest Marcoelwray]

@Grangur thanks for the résumé! (I have to answer your PM, but tiiiime!)

31 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

@Marcoelwray cheaper than a courier and much much safer. I may have missed it, but which one are you passing around?

On the first page, last post, (I think, somewhere there), I made a video to explain the passaround, with the Infinga 4 (so a standard 34.25" scale, 24frets, EADG bass). This is the much complete and technically correct of my basses, excpet for the Infinga 5 "STD" (the Flamed Ash one), but this last belongs to my friend, not to me. I tought a 4 string is a better instrument to passaround, there's a lot of comparisons to make...

[Geek99]

On 07/09/2018 at 14:12, Marcoelwray said:

Hi 

Thank you.

Price is not really a matter because I currently Don't sell them. My friend paid all the invoices, I get the material, I build the bass. I asked for 200€ more to cover my electricity expenses. Originally it was equipped with SSB5 pickups but he bought Delano SBC5 HE/S set to change (I like the SSB5 set as it's a really neutral set) so I think all in it's about 1600€. It's expensive because I have not really good discounts on wood, hardware, etc...

But with a smart choice of woods, and hardware I can get a bass build for 1000€.

For now, I do big big necks in D shape, because I'm really sick of thin necks, but that is a personnal taste. it's a little bigger than a standard WW D profile neck. I will show you in the video of the Amani.

Thanks for reacting to my post Andy

Cheers

Marco

I'd pay 1000E; I think its worth it. When you consider what they charge for a US elite, made by the thousand in a factory. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Geek99

[Guest Marcoelwray]

@Geek99 thanks. On this last one there is aesthetic defaults I can't really forgive myself about, you'll see. But without those, regarding the playability, I barely can't stand the prices I see everywhere... I won't even get a Sire because of the workers conditions... In this situation, you have to go for people actually correctly paid for their work... But who's making basses manually these times? I can't understand the market. They are killing music. Buy a Wyn Guitars. That's the only man (I'm aware of) working alone and charge "only" 4000$ without using a CNC. Another debate.

Regarding the Infinga 4, action is resetted, pickups are in good place, side dots are placed (not very well).

[SpondonBassed]

9 hours ago, Marcoelwray said:

But who's making basses manually these times? I can't understand the market. They are killing music. Buy a Wyn Guitars. That's the only man (I'm aware of) working alone and charge "only" 4000$ without using a CNC. Another debate.

That is indeed worthy of a topic all by itself.

You can see why many build their own.

[honza992]

I think everyone here builds without CNC. Though admittedly not commercially. I don't think it's possible to earn a living making guitars without using CNC. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by honza992

[Hellzero]

Christophe LEDUC is earning his living (not that much, that said) without any CNC and he's working totally alone. You still can get a totally hand made 4 strings Masterpiece bass for exactly 4400 Euros (active bass with high end woods, pickups and preamp).

[Guest Marcoelwray]

1 hour ago, honza992 said:

I think everyone here builds without CNC. Though admittedly not commercially. I don't think it's possible to earn a living making guitars without using CNC. 

Yeah, I meant all the luthiers I know… I'm sure there's a lot of people still doing it by hand. The Esh story is a good example of perfect start, shitty end. Because of money.

Randall Fullmer, from Wyn Guitars, has a 4 years waiting list, ask around 4000$ for a bass, and, even if he has a lot of machines (he bought big chunks of wood and make all the pices himself), he carved by hand, the body by hand, the neck… He's living with that and alone!  Everybody who likes basses should see the "Restrung documentary" by Mike Enns on YouTube.

But I guess that living in USA should really helps, In Belgium (I think it's quite the same in UK, not sure), the governement takes you about 60% of your money if you take the money from your company to your personnal account. Quick example; if I want to transfer 1000€ from my company to my personnal account (for living purposes), I will have 400€. What can I say? or do?

The most successful luthier in Belgium is Jens Ritter, (https://ritter-instruments.com/) But if I'm not saying bull****, I think the Ritter R8 SC is about 8000€.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Marcoelwray

[Hellzero]

Except that Jens Ritter is German and making instruments in Germany. 😉

[Guest Marcoelwray]

2 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Except that Jens Ritter is German and making instruments in Germany. 😉

Oupssss, my bad. I was convinced he was Belgian. Sorry.

Well, I Don't know others very well, there is Paul Belgrado, Kritz (who actually stopped his activities), and a Dutch but I totally forgot his name...

[Grangur]

German income tax is high anyway, so the point is still well made. It's fair to say you won't make much money building basses without going to CNC manufacturing. 
But where's the style and craftsmanship in CNC?

[Jimothey]

32 minutes ago, Grangur said:

But where's the style and craftsmanship in CNC?

I think it's a bit harsh to say there's no style and craftsmanship in CNC you still have to have style to create a design and you need to have craftsman skills to assemble and do a high end finish 

IMHO there's not much difference in using a CNC than say a bandsaw, pin router, thicknesser, tablesaw etc Ithey are all just tools to aid you with the building process 

[Hellzero]

But a luthier is tuning his woods and crafting his instruments according to this. With CNC or mass production instruments à la Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Yamaha or ..., good instruments are just a lottery.

[honza992]

I think I agree with @Jimothey

I use a router with a guided bit, which more or less does exactly what a CNC does.  If you think about it, that bearing is a primitive CNC!  It reproduces a shape with only minimal intervention from me.  I think the difference in mechanisation at this point is one of degrees.  I don't use CNC because I build for the (non financial) reward it gives me.  So I'm not sure using CNC would help that much. 

I think the key is customisation and developing a customer experience that goes beyond simply walking into a shop and picking something off the shelf.  A custom builder has the opportunity to work with the client to build something that is designed for them, but also something where they have helped chose the wood, the binding, the finish etc etc .  That's my goal anyway. But there's no way I would ever be able to do that to pay a mortgage.....Not when competing with CNC. 

[Jimothey]

@Hellzero sorry but the point I was trying to make wasn't aimed at mass production guitars it was that a Luthier making a one off bass would make the same quality guitar by using a CNC machine or doing it by hand 

[Guest Marcoelwray]

1 hour ago, Grangur said:

German income tax is high anyway, so the point is still well made. It's fair to say you won't make much money building basses without going to CNC manufacturing. 
But where's the style and craftsmanship in CNC?

This is my last post about that (I don't mind but it's quite off topic fellows). It's not about money but living. Enough to live normally suits me fine. But I want offer people affordable prices (2500 max) for handmade basses. It's simply not realistic (to combine both: living and low prices)

Thanks you to create another topic about that if you want to debate about that I will happy to discuss (debate) of that.

[Hellzero]

17 minutes ago, Jimothey said:

@Hellzero sorry but the point I was trying to make wasn't aimed at mass production guitars it was that a Luthier making a one off bass would make the same quality guitar by using a CNC machine or doing it by hand 

In this case, I totally agree with your point of view.

[fleabag]

4 hours ago, Marcoelwray said:

and a Dutch but I totally forgot his name...

Adamovic ?

http://adamovic.nl/

[Grangur]

4 hours ago, Jimothey said:

@Hellzero sorry but the point I was trying to make wasn't aimed at mass production guitars it was that a Luthier making a one off bass would make the same quality guitar by using a CNC machine or doing it by hand 

The whole point of CNC is setting up a computer to remember how to make the same shape item repeatedly. You wouldn't normally use CNC for a 1-off.

[Jimothey]

1 hour ago, Grangur said:

The whole point of CNC is setting up a computer to remember how to make the same shape item repeatedly. You wouldn't normally use CNC for a 1-off.

Sorry I get the point your making but I completely disagree with your logic if you only make a template (computer or otherwise) if you are going to do the same shape repeatedly why do most people make a template to build a guitar body if they aren't going to use it again?? If it's for accuracy then surely isn't that what CNC machines were designed for?? Also sorry but if you watch any custom bike building programs they more often than not use a CNC to cut the 1 off pieces required for the build 

And finally sorry @Marcoelwray for the thread hijack I promise that was the last post I'll do about the off topic subject 😀

 

[SpondonBassed]

7 hours ago, Grangur said:

You wouldn't normally use CNC for a 1-off.

Depends on your flavour of normal.

Where there are complex curves, especially when machining metal, 5 axis CNC is most advantageous but for guitars, being relatively shallow in depth, complex shapes can be achieved easily on the more affordable 3 axis machines.

You need an aptitude for programming them though, even with the so-called intuitive models.  I suspect that I am not the only one to have issues with that aspect of the equipment.

For those wanting to know the difference between 3 and 5 axis CNC.

 

6 hours ago, Jimothey said:

And finally sorry @Marcoelwray for the thread hijack I promise that was the last post I'll do about the off topic subject 😀 

Yes.  Me too.  Heeheehee

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[Grangur]

At least the continued discussion is bumping the thread, drawing attention to the first posts.

[Grangur]

To be honest, if all those who have a loan of the bass, have it for 2-3 weeks, we can take it to other bass players for them to try. I can take it to @gary mac and @Al Krow, if they're interested.

Also @Lozz196 and @TheGreek don't live far away. So, this way, we can get it into the hands of a good number of bass players. It may not be to everyone's taste. Some like the feel of paint, for example, but I'm sure some will be interested.

[Geek99]

Maybe I could hand it over as I do come to nottingham from time to time

 

@Grangur

do you come past j22 m1 much?

[Guest Marcoelwray]

I said in the original post ; all suggestions are welcome.... 1 week is not enough? Ok, let's make it more.

It could be fine to know exactly who will have it, for feedback reasons and because I want to.

you're free to update the list, I just want to know when it'll leave here and for how long...

[TheGreek]

4 hours ago, Grangur said:

To be honest, if all those who have a loan of the bass, have it for 2-3 weeks, we can take it to other bass players for them to try. I can take it to @gary mac and @Al Krow, if they're interested.

Also @Lozz196 and @TheGreek don't live far away. So, this way, we can get it into the hands of a good number of bass players. It may not be to everyone's taste. Some like the feel of paint, for example, but I'm sure some will be interested.

I'll be more than happy to test drive your creation. I love unique basses - inspires me to think that there is always something that could be used in another project. Check my Psilos Bass - most knowledgeable bassists will see the inspiration from other instruments.

Can't guarantee that I'll pass it on though if I really like it. 😉😉