PA recommendations

[intime-nick]

I’m posting this as the bass player / inadvertent sound guy for our band (EL34, rock covers band). 

We have a pretty nice Yamaha PA setup -  2xDXR12 tops and 1x DXS12 sub with various DBR monitors (for those not on IEMs) all controlled by an XR18 mixer. The band comprises 2x guitarists, drummer with a nice Drum-Tec e-kit and me on bass.  The drummer and I are on IEMs and the two guitarists have the monitors. Both guitarists and I sing (lead or backing depending on the song)

The whole band goes through the PA - drummer is direct to mixer, bass is direct to mixer (I use the onboard compression/EQ/effects) and the two guitarists cabs are mic’d.  Our FOH sound is pretty good (although I’m a rank amateur at the whole band mixing thing) but we get by !

Because my bass GAS is pretty low at the moment, I’m looking at how we could gain a bit more headroom in the FOH sound without having to cart around any more gear.  I had thought to just add another DXS12 sub but I’m not sure that it’ll help as it means another heavy box to lug around (and we’re short on space in the 4 cars we take to each gig).  What I’d really like is a little more ‘throw’ into the back of the various pubs and clubs we usually play - it is noticeable that the low end of the FOH sound isn’t carrying as well as it possibly could. I have no real complaints about the overall sound - it just could do with being a bit ‘bigger’ (if that makes ANY sense whatsoever !!!)

No real idea of budget at the moment - the sale of the Yamaha PA would need to fund some of any future purchases and I’d like to think we can make gains in the overall headroom and projection. 

Any hints, tips, ideas, discussions welcome. 

[itsmedunc]

Our setup is a lot like yours (live drums though)but we only use a pair of Barefaced FR800's FOH. The BF are great sounding, small and lightweight and can do a venue (with the whole band through them) of about 100-150 folk (depending on the volume and bottom end you require you of course). The bass sucks a lot of power from them though and so we are also looking for a bit more out front but do not want subs (don't really like the over wooly sound that lots of bands prefer today). So, we're adding a pair of RCF 745a's in the hope that, at larger gigs we can use all 4 FOH, smaller gigs RCF's as the main PA and the BF as monitors (or vice versa). I'm hoping the RCF's will do the FOH job on their own to be honest. Lots of folk like them on here and say they are easily capable of taking a whole live band. Don't get me wrong, the BF can do that but they can run out of steam if the music you play is loud (our engineer likes loud ).

In your position, I can only think of getting a larger sub and selling the existing one or replacing your your tops with something like the BF's or 745's. Maybe you could ditch your sub too? I'll have a better idea of how the RCF's perform as soon as we get them to a gig.

 

[EBS_freak]

Hi @intime-nick - what are you using as the crossover on your subs? You may want to lower that to 100 or even 80 - so more low end is going through the tops. If you are crossing over at 120, theres a lot of bass energy and sonic detail that is being taken out of the foh that are at ear height and being fired at peoples feet with not a particularly powerful sub. (Not dissing the sub, it's just that it's not going to push out that much low end at high enough energy to push it a long way from the stage - especially if it's getting absorbed by peoples legs. I'm guessing the sound that you are hearing is fairly toppy from the back of the venue?

Can you separate out the kick drum on the module? Being able to compress that, and put a nice peak at around 50hz (or maybe 65 given the size of the subs) should add some bass weight back into your mix. In fact, you may want to plug the L and R into the main L and R on the XR18, put a HPF at around 90hz, and run the sub completely off an aux to give you more control over that precious low end. Realistically, you probably only want the kick to go through the sub - putting bass guitar fundamentals through the sub is going to eat up it's bandwidth very quickly.... but physco acoustics will put the lows back in when you hear the 1st harmonics and above come out of the mains.

itsmedunc's suggestion of RCF745s (or 735s) are sound. I've said many a time that those speakers are unique in what they are offering at their price point. The 3 (735) and 4 (745) inch compression drivers in those cabs, allow for the hf drivers to take on a lot of vocal duties which in other cabs, would be handled by the main driver. This allows for a lower crossover, so the larger speaker is more concentrated on producing the mids and lows as opposed to trying to get the tops sorted also. This frees up the speaker to a lot more work on the low end without muddying up the vocals. Those 3 and 4 inch VC drivers throw vocals like nothing else... and with the main speakers throwing out some serious volume as well... you have a very formidable setup. Add a sub or two to take care of the uber lows, and those 15inch drivers are only working on several hundred hz... which means your low mids and mids are going to have so much bandwidth, it starts to get ridiculous. Those boxes are light... and super efficient... and should not really exist with those drivers... or the price point! And they are potent enough to keep all but the most serious of bass nuts happy without carrying around subs.

Without knowing too much about your band however... big sounds usually require moving a lot of air... so it does sound like that your cabs are getting towards their limit. If you are compressing, you are already gaining headroom... you need to add speakers... or saturation to give the output more harmonic content... but that comes at the risk of hurty ears if you start over doing it!

[xzodar]

One thing that made a big difference to my PA setup was adjusting the gain on the back of the speaker appropriately (also DXR12’s as it happens although over a pair of 15” Yamaha subs).

Basically with my old Mackie setup I had been told to set the gain on the back of the speaker to 12 o’clock and leave it.

With the Yamaha’s I have done the following:

With the FOH speakers turned right down via the dial on the back, played an mp3 into the desk and set the gain on the input channel so that it was at unity.  Then brought up the channel fader to unity and then raised the main LR so that the signal leaving the desk was also at unity.

Then brought up the gain on the rear of the speakers until the signal clip light on the back of the speaker started to flicker and then just backed them off a touch.  Typically my speakers are set somewhere between 2 and 3 o’clock on the gain at the rear for my desk and setup.  (A&H QU-SB)  

Now of course, this might be a load of old rubbish or you have probably done the same, however all I can say is that I worked for me.

The other thing to make sure is that your tops are high enough for the horns to project over the top of the crowd rather than into the first couple of rows of people on the dance floor.  I’m absolutely not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but that’s just one other thing that I have learnt over time by trial and error. 🙂

 

Cheers, Pete 

[intime-nick]

9 hours ago, itsmedunc said:

Our setup is a lot like yours (live drums though)but we only use a pair of Barefaced FR800's FOH. The BF are great sounding, small and lightweight and can do a venue (with the whole band through them) of about 100-150 folk (depending on the volume and bottom end you require you of course). The bass sucks a lot of power from them though and so we are also looking for a bit more out front but do not want subs (don't really like the over wooly sound that lots of bands prefer today). So, we're adding a pair of RCF 745a's in the hope that, at larger gigs we can use all 4 FOH, smaller gigs RCF's as the main PA and the BF as monitors (or vice versa). I'm hoping the RCF's will do the FOH job on their own to be honest. Lots of folk like them on here and say they are easily capable of taking a whole live band. Don't get me wrong, the BF can do that but they can run out of steam if the music you play is loud (our engineer likes loud ).

In your position, I can only think of getting a larger sub and selling the existing one or replacing your your tops with something like the BF's or 745's. Maybe you could ditch your sub too? I'll have a better idea of how the RCF's perform as soon as we get them to a gig.

 

i'd be very interested to hear how you get on with 2x 745s and no subs - that, to me, sounds like an ideal setup for our band

[intime-nick]

32 minutes ago, xzodar said:

One thing that made a big difference to my PA setup was adjusting the gain on the back of the speaker appropriately (also DXR12’s as it happens although over a pair of 15” Yamaha subs).

Basically with my old Mackie setup I had been told to set the gain on the back of the speaker to 12 o’clock and leave it.

With the Yamaha’s I have done the following:

With the FOH speakers turned right down via the dial on the back, played an mp3 into the desk and set the gain on the input channel so that it was at unity.  Then brought up the channel fader to unity and then raised the main LR so that the signal leaving the desk was also at unity.

Then brought up the gain on the rear of the speakers until the signal clip light on the back of the speaker started to flicker and then just backed them off a touch.  Typically my speakers are set somewhere between 2 and 3 o’clock on the gain at the rear for my desk and setup.  (A&H QU-SB)  

Now of course, this might be a load of old rubbish or you have probably done the same, however all I can say is that I worked for me.

The other thing to make sure is that your tops are high enough for the horns to project over the top of the crowd rather than into the first couple of rows of people on the dance floor.  I’m absolutely not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but that’s just one other thing that I have learnt over time by trial and error. 🙂

 

Cheers, Pete 

Thanks Pete - we set our tops to unity gain and very rarely touch them - output on the mixer main outs is generally also at unity.  I'll give that a try at our next gig on Friday along with changing the x-over setting.  The tops are typically at around 6ft off the ground (to the centre of the main driver) so plenty high enough i reckon for most places we play.  

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by intime-nick

[intime-nick]

49 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Hi @intime-nick - what are you using as the crossover on your subs? You may want to lower that to 100 or even 80 - so more low end is going through the tops. If you are crossing over at 120, theres a lot of bass energy and sonic detail that is being taken out of the foh that are at ear height and being fired at peoples feet with not a particularly powerful sub. (Not dissing the sub, it's just that it's not going to push out that much low end at high enough energy to push it a long way from the stage - especially if it's getting absorbed by peoples legs. I'm guessing the sound that you are hearing is fairly toppy from the back of the venue?

Can you separate out the kick drum on the module? Being able to compress that, and put a nice peak at around 50hz (or maybe 65 given the size of the subs) should add some bass weight back into your mix. In fact, you may want to plug the L and R into the main L and R on the XR18, put a HPF at around 90hz, and run the sub completely off an aux to give you more control over that precious low end. Realistically, you probably only want the kick to go through the sub - putting bass guitar fundamentals through the sub is going to eat up it's bandwidth very quickly.... but physco acoustics will put the lows back in when you hear the 1st harmonics and above come out of the mains.

itsmedunc's suggestion of RCF745s (or 735s) are sound. I've said many a time that those speakers are unique in what they are offering at their price point. The 3 (735) and 4 (745) inch compression drivers in those cabs, allow for the hf drivers to take on a lot of vocal duties which in other cabs, would be handled by the main driver. This allows for a lower crossover, so the larger speaker is more concentrated on producing the mids and lows as opposed to trying to get the tops sorted also. This frees up the speaker to a lot more work on the low end without muddying up the vocals. Those 3 and 4 inch VC drivers throw vocals like nothing else... and with the main speakers throwing out some serious volume as well... you have a very formidable setup. Add a sub or two to take care of the uber lows, and those 15inch drivers are only working on several hundred hz... which means your low mids and mids are going to have so much bandwidth, it starts to get ridiculous. Those boxes are light... and super efficient... and should not really exist with those drivers... or the price point! And they are potent enough to keep all but the most serious of bass nuts happy without carrying around subs.

Without knowing too much about your band however... big sounds usually require moving a lot of air... so it does sound like that your cabs are getting towards their limit. If you are compressing, you are already gaining headroom... you need to add speakers... or saturation to give the output more harmonic content... but that comes at the risk of hurty ears if you start over doing it!

Thanks Russ - I'll have a look at the x-over settings.  We don't have spare aux to run the sub independently but I will speak to the drummer re. the bass drum out - at the moment he's running L&R from the module straight into the mixer.  We don't struggle to get a good sound but I'm always looking for ways to improve things given the transportation constraints we have.  

[mrtcat]

I used to find the Yamaha DXS range of subs a bit too muddy. Theyre bandpass so can give the perception of decent volume but at the expense of clarity and good transient response. One of my bands uses RCF 745s and they're absolutely great. We have them paired with RCF 905 subs and it's a formidable rig. My other band has two FR800s. We just ordered an LF1400 to go with them as the FR800s have a lot to deal with when we all go through (we don't use any backline). I would say that a single DXS12 would definitely struggle with a full band. 

[intime-nick]

5 hours ago, mrtcat said:

I used to find the Yamaha DXS range of subs a bit too muddy. Theyre bandpass so can give the perception of decent volume but at the expense of clarity and good transient response. One of my bands uses RCF 745s and they're absolutely great. We have them paired with RCF 905 subs and it's a formidable rig. My other band has two FR800s. We just ordered an LF1400 to go with them as the FR800s have a lot to deal with when we all go through (we don't use any backline). I would say that a single DXS12 would definitely struggle with a full band. 

Thanks for the info Tom, I’d be interested in hearing your band with the 745s - let me know when you’re playing next with that band and I’ll try and get over to have a listen (as you’re not that far away from me). We get (in my VERY humble opinion) a pretty good sound with our current setup but I know we can do better with no extra hassle from a transportation & setup point of view. As with all these things, I’d need to hear them used in a band context to get a better idea of what we’re potentially missing.  It’s not my PA that we use with the band so I’m working on the drummer to move away from his beloved Yamaha setup.  I need more real-world info to be able to convince him !

[mrtcat]

No problem, the band with the RCF setup is purely weddings / corporate but I'll see if there's something in tye diary where it would be ok to bring a guest or two.

When our LF1400 arrives with my other band I'll report back too. That is by far the lightest and most compact of the subs we will have and should definitely match the pair of yamaha DXS15s we used to lug about. That might be a good consideration as a replacement for your DXS12. Still only £999 at the moment. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by mrtcat

[Jack]

On 12/09/2018 at 19:07, mrtcat said:

I used to find the Yamaha DXS range of subs a bit too muddy. Theyre bandpass so can give the perception of decent volume but at the expense of clarity and good transient response. One of my bands uses RCF 745s and they're absolutely great. We have them paired with RCF 905 subs and it's a formidable rig. My other band has two FR800s. We just ordered an LF1400 to go with them as the FR800s have a lot to deal with when we all go through (we don't use any backline). I would say that a single DXS12 would definitely struggle with a full band. 

What are your thoughts on the FR800 vs the 745? My main band is looking for an upgrade and I (as a bass rig) have FR800s, so we could do two of those for the PA but I have a feeling that the RCFs are likely better PA cabs.

[mrtcat]

Yeah, I think that the 745s are the better PA cab. The horn on the 745 is just so good that the crossover point can be lower so it handles a lot of the high mid upwards leaving the main driver free to work harder lower down. They also have a longer throw which is better in bigger rooms. That said the FR800s are excellent in slightly smaller rooms and rooms where the dance floor starts right in front of the band because the dispersion is a bit wider close in. They handle lows well but I feel they still need at least one sub no matter where you use them. The 745's can definitely be used without subs in smaller rooms.

I own the FR800s but the 745s are owned by the band leader in the other band. I ummed and ahhed a lot over which to buy but in the end went for the FR800s because I don't own a bass amp just a Helix and one FR800 is perfect when I dep and the band I'm depping for use backline. It looks more bass amp like in that scenario and the mids and highs disperse well across the stage. I do more work in the band that use the FR800s as it's a band I started years ago and I have absolutely no complaints with them as PA cabs. The clarity of what they put out is absolutely great and they go loud without ever sounding strained or harsh.

[Jack]

2 hours ago, mrtcat said:

.. in the end went for the FR800s because I don't own a bass amp just a Helix and one FR800 is perfect when I dep and the band I'm depping for use backline. It looks more bass amp like in that scenario and the mids and highs disperse well across the stage.

Indeed, knowing they would be a bass amp 95% of the time is why I chose thethe FR800 too, I think I may push the band towards rcf. Thanks for taking the time.