Does anyone actually LIKE jazz?

[mangotango]

20 hours ago, Count Bassy said:

Old style jazz , Dixy Land Jazz etc YES.

'Modern Jazz' No.

Exactly the opposite of this. I love most jazz, but can't bear Trad/Dixie. Part of that, I suppose, is due the standard line-up including two instruments I hate to hear - banjo and clarinet.

Two things that I can't stand, when you turn up to a "Jazz" night at a venue:-

1) The bloke in a tux, with backing tracks and no musicians, doing Rat Pack material

2) The Brit Trad Jazz band that's given themselves "Dixieland" or "Chicago-style" nicknames ('Kid' Brown, 'Spats' Smith, etc.), all wearing matching stripey waistcoats and straw boaters - and when the drummer hits a one-bar break in a tune, and everyone shouts "ooyah! ooyah!". Time to go........

[mangotango]

13 hours ago, drTStingray said:

And there's lots of both (even by my choice!!) - Moondance??!! 😂

Ah yes, Moondance...

 

 

[drTStingray]

4 hours ago, bassace said:

I’m just not hearing this. Orbison’s and the Beatles’ tunes use a piano figure from the blues predating Miles by a decade or three. There are a few books analysing Kind of Blue, I’ve not read most of them but would be very surprised if they attached the KoB connection to these pop tunes.

Maybe the Ronny Jordan version helps? It's the bass figure which is very reminiscent in the riff in Pretty Woman and also in Day Tripper - both of which use upper flat 7ths and 9ths as the upper part of their riff - as per the bass figure in So What. I always thought the Beatles, who toured or appeared with Orbison, had likely been influenced by it in writing Day Tripper. Similar notes and pattern - different timing - a little like Whole Lotta Love and Hoochie Coochie Man.

http://youtu.be/lANilh2bLo4

Edited September 14, 2018 by drTStingray

[bassace]

Different planets, drT, different planets.

[Cicero]

For those of you who do want to try some of the more accessible jazz, these are a few personal favourites:

 

 

 

 

 

And for something a little different...

 

 

and for something really different... (This is amazing, btw)

And there is so much more out there...

[mic mac moe]

I do. I love the artistry, the combinations of instruments. 

[lowdown]

2 hours ago, drTStingray said:

 both of which use upper flat 7ths and 9ths as the upper part of their riff - as per the bass figure in So What. 

So does 'Ain't No Stopping Us Now'....

 

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, lowdown said:

So does 'Ain't No Stopping Us Now'....

 

Yep similar pattern - different feel - also appears in I Feel Good - James Brown - in all cases as riffs 👍

Edited September 14, 2018 by drTStingray

[Reggaebass]

I’m not a big  jazz listener but you can’t not like this 

 

[Count Bassy]

On 14/09/2018 at 13:36, mangotango said:

Exactly the opposite of this. I love most jazz, but can't bear Trad/Dixie. Part of that, I suppose, is due the standard line-up including two instruments I hate to hear - banjo and clarinet.

Two things that I can't stand, when you turn up to a "Jazz" night at a venue:-

1) The bloke in a tux, with backing tracks and no musicians, doing Rat Pack material

2) The Brit Trad Jazz band that's given themselves "Dixieland" or "Chicago-style" nicknames ('Kid' Brown, 'Spats' Smith, etc.), all wearing matching stripey waistcoats and straw boaters - and when the drummer hits a one-bar break in a tune, and everyone shouts "ooyah! ooyah!". Time to go........

I apart from saying  "I wish they wouldn't' rather than "I can't stand" on point no 2 I actually agree on your two points, but I still love the music. Bix Beiderbecke Jelly Roll Morton etc.

  Good job we're n ot all the same. Vive la difference eh?

[TheGreek]

People forget that, like most genres of music, Jazz has many styles. I don't like "Trad Jazz" but I'll listen to loads of other stuff.

I love the Rat Pack era Jazz which Michael Buble has re-invigorated, I love "Soft Jazz" which you curl up with your partner with and the Funky jazz which allows Bassists to demonstrate their art and skills.

Just wish there wasn't so much soloing...but I think that with Rock too.

[Coilte]

13 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

Just wish there wasn't so much soloing..

Reminds me of what Miles Davis said to Coltrane when he (Coltrane) said he found it difficult to end a solo when in full spiritual flight...." Try taking the f***ing horn down from outta ya mouth...!!!   😅

Edited September 16, 2018 by Coilte

[BreadBin]

I heard this on 6 Music last night whilst driving - very atmospheric 

 

[Buzzy]

On 14/09/2018 at 13:36, mangotango said:

Exactly the opposite of this. I love most jazz, but can't bear Trad/Dixie. Part of that, I suppose, is due the standard line-up including two instruments I hate to hear - banjo and clarinet.

Two things that I can't stand, when you turn up to a "Jazz" night at a venue:-

1) The bloke in a tux, with backing tracks and no musicians, doing Rat Pack material

2) The Brit Trad Jazz band that's given themselves "Dixieland" or "Chicago-style" nicknames ('Kid' Brown, 'Spats' Smith, etc.), all wearing matching stripey waistcoats and straw boaters - and when the drummer hits a one-bar break in a tune, and everyone shouts "ooyah! ooyah!". Time to go........

You mean this type of thing  

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Buzzy

[Bilbo]

Jazz, like all genres, is a broad church. I like what I like and don't like what I don't like. Sometimes I listen to things that I might like but then don't. Other times, I listen to stuff I have never heard of and love it. Sometimes, I listen to stuff I used to like and find that I don't like it anymore. I even listen to stuff I didn't used to like and find that I now do. It's complicated being me. 

 

What I don't like is non-Jazz being called Jazz e.g. Moondance. I personally don't like the 'Jazz as nostalgia' movements e.g. Buble et al or 'X plays the music of long dead Y'. Trad Jazz can be OK but can also be a bit icky. The most important thing is that none of this matters because I am not the King of Jazz or Emperor of The Universe. So carry on liking whatever you want to like without fear of censure from the arbiters of taste. Even if it is not Jazz at all but cabaret with a saxophonist involved. 

[Dad3353]

+1 ^^

(Well, not the 'Emperor Of The Universe' bit, obviously, but I don't like to boast about it ...)

[Bilbo]

I think you damn well should be the Emperor of the Universe, Dad. You could sort it all out once and for all. 

[Dad3353]

I though I had. What did I miss..? 

[Paul S]

3 hours ago, Bilbo said:

What I don't like is non-Jazz being called Jazz e.g. Moondance. 

When it comes to music I like what I like, not really an aficionado of anything much and not stuck in any particular genre.  I certainly do not know much about jazz.  But, at risk of being pilloried - to me 'Moondance' sounds like jazz.  And I actually quite like it.   This is a genuine question, I am not playing Devil's advocate or trolling or anything.  What exactly is the issue with 'Moondance'?  Why does it constantly get a slating and why isn't it jazz?  OK, that is three questions.  But if, like you say, jazz is a broad church why does something that, to me, sounds like jazz get left standing on the church porch?

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Paul S
To include the missing 'not' and make sense

[bassace]

IMHO Moondance can just about be classed as jazz, it’s just played very badly. And, of course, when something gets played to death it ceases to be called jazz (emoji denoting heavy irony).

When I was a young buck we had the same argument concerning the classification of a sports car. It started with cars with open tops. Then the Lotus Cortina came along and confused everything. 

I suspect the jazz definition was dead easy in the 1920s when there was no other form of ‘lively music’ to compete.

I did a jazz trio gig the other day and amongst some Monk and Miles we played a version of Sukiyaki, a pop tune from the sixties. So, go figure.

[Coilte]

39 minutes ago, Paul S said:

When it comes to music I like what I like, not really an aficionado of anything much and not stuck in any particular genre.  I certainly do know much about jazz.  But, at risk of being pilloried - to me 'Moondance' sounds like jazz.  And I actually quite like it.   This is a genuine question, I am not playing Devil's advocate or trolling or anything.  What exactly is the issue with 'Moondance'?  Why does it constantly get a slating and why isn't it jazz?  OK, that is three questions.  But if, like you say, jazz is a broad church why does something that, to me, sounds like jazz get left standing on the church porch?

 

I can offer one reason regarding the general attitude about Moondance being (or not being ) jazz.  Because there is a lot of snobbery and elitism attached to the genre.  Why this should be the case, is beyond me, considering it's humble beginnings. An example of this snobbery and elitism is quoted below, taken from an earlier post in this thread. 

 

  On 12/09/2018 at 13:12,  HengistPod said: 

I have a cousin who makes a very tidy living in London singing French jazz and playing accordion. Residencies in brasseries , gigs on the Orient Express and the like, playing with top-notch po-faced jazz musicians in dinner suits.

She absolutely refuses to acknowledge me, with my 38 years of playing bass in rock cover bands, as any level of musician whatsoever.

Which is probably fair enough, to be honest. 

[knirirr]

As the topic of "Moondance" has come up...

https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/2018/07/01/johnny-scott-communication-1967-emi/

[Paul S]

Just realised I missed out an important 'NOT' in my post above.  So it should have read 'I certainly do not know much about jazz.'   

Surely it comes down to more than purely snobbery and elitism?  I would hope so.  

[Coilte]

8 minutes ago, Paul S said:

 

Surely it comes down to more than purely snobbery and elitism?  I would hope so.  

Perhaps there IS more to it, but I can not think of any other reason why people would get their knickers in a twist when Moondance is referred to as being jazz. 😄   I have been a jazz fan all my like (now 63) and I could not care less if  someone interprets the song as jazz. It's all MUSIC to me. Some of it you like...some you don't. No harm done.

 

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, Paul S said:

to me 'Moondance' sounds like jazz. 

Id say it sort of is!

But only sort of, in that it's a jazzy feel in what is basically a pop song. But then so is anything by Frank Sinatra, or Mr Bubbles et al; similarly, as far as I'm concerned anything that's got all the parts written and played exactly the same every time isn't really jazz - it's almost pastiche.

For me, real jazz is an improvisation developing from a theme, where what's important isn't the theme but the interplay between the musicians and what actually happens once the theme is finished. It's about the music that's inside the musician coming out, rather than a musician playing notes as they're written. No reason why the theme can't be written, and rehearsing it is probably a good thing to, but the overall piece should be something new every time. Which is why jazz has always been music that pushes boundaries; it's not the tuxedo-ed dinner jazz types doing this - they're often basically covers bands (not that there's anything wrong with that - you've got to make a living!) but if someone wasn't making new music there'd be less to cover!

This is why most people don't really like real jazz - it's challenging and isn't always an easy listen; most folks want a nice tune, and if they can tap their feet to it that's a bonus. 

So here's some jazz - looks like Jamaaladeen may have the notes for the initial theme (unless he's checking his Facebook) but it's what develops after the initial playing around the theme that counts..