Summer of 69? Drop D?

[spectoremg]

If I'm playing in a covers band and someone who plays originals glides by on a cloud of rarefied air I kneel down and tug my forelock. 

[uk_lefty]

Isn't the London symphony orchestra a covers band?

[BigRedX]

On 15/09/2018 at 14:55, Happy Jack said:

Serious question - can anyone other than the bass player actually tell that it's in Drop D?

When asked to play this, I've just used a 5-string in standard tuning ... sounded OK to me.

IME it sounds best in a decent 5 string where D on the low B string will have proper tension and not be a horrible floppy mess that results from tuning E down to D.

 

21 hours ago, chris_b said:

Well, they do, so you should be wondering why you don't understand something so fundamental to public musical performance.

For me the enigma of covers bands is what makes them better than a playlist of the original recordings? 

 

2 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

Isn't the London symphony orchestra a covers band?

Yes they are. But since a lot of the music they play was never recorded when first written, they can get away with it. 

However with contemporary classical music there is now a trend towards ensembles playing music that has been specially written for them. For instance I don't think I'd want to see anyone other than Arditti Quartet perform the Fred Frith pieces that he composed for them to play.

[Cuzzie]

@BigRedX not sure what basses or strings you use, but drop D on a normal 4 string need not be a floppy mess and can be easily properly tensioned with or without a D tuner

[BigRedX]

14 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@BigRedX not sure what basses or strings you use, but drop D on a normal 4 string need not be a floppy mess and can be easily properly tensioned with or without a D tuner

If you have your E string the right tension for E, then how can it possibly still be the right tension for D (a whole tone lower)? Bear in mind that at those kinds of pitches the the difference in string gauges for a 5 semitone drop is 25-30 thousands of an inch, so you'd want a string tuned down to D to be at least 10 thousands of an inch heavier than one then tuned to E.

It might be that I am more sensitive to string tension and compliance. I have a separate guitar for drop D playing as I need to have a 56 rather than my standard 52 gauge string fitted.

[Dad3353]

16 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

If you have your E string the right tension for E, then how can it possibly still be the right tension for D (a whole tone lower)? Bear in mind that at those kinds of pitches the the difference in string gauges for a 5 semitone drop is 25-30 thousands of an inch, so you'd want a string tuned down to D to be at least 10 thousands of an inch heavier than one then tuned to E.

It might be that I am more sensitive to string tension and compliance. I have a separate guitar for drop D playing as I need to have a 56 rather than my standard 52 gauge string fitted.

A special case, and a special talent, but Joni Mitchell down-tunes and re-tunes to various 'open' and other tunings, 'live', on stage, and plays beautifully all evening. Gifted, maybe, or just lucky..?

 

[Stylon Pilson]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

For me the enigma of covers bands is what makes them better than a playlist of the original recordings?

Surely you could ask the same question about originals bands, and the answer would be applicable to both scenarios?

S.P.

[Dood]

In all my years playing this song, I don't think I ever actually listened to the original to reference the actual notes I should be playing. Therefore, heading down to a "low D" was purely because I felt like it rather than having learnt it note for note from the original track. So, I couldn't have been 100% sure if there was a D1 in it. Yet sure enough, the D1 appears and therefore yes you could drop D on a 4 string or use the D on a 5 string bass.

 

[Happy Jack]

13 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

A special case, and a special talent, but Joni Mitchell down-tunes and re-tunes to various 'open' and other tunings, 'live', on stage, and plays beautifully all evening. 

 

The BL does this at our pub gigs, along with swopping between his three guitars.

Makes for a LOT of downtime between songs, and a depressing number of songs played badly out of tune.

And he is, in fact, very talented and has a good ear. I don't know how he manages to play so out of tune - it must be really grating to him.

[Happy Jack]

21 hours ago, steantval said:

That covers band Enigma have changed their name to The Bletchley Circle, now doing all original stuff,  but not many people can work it out.

I bet they go down a Bomb.

[SpondonBassed]

I remember Nathan Watts saying that he detuned his bass to E flat mainly because he had been a trumpet player previously.  He also says that he likes the slack feel of the strings due to the half note difference.  Sometimes you can hear it.  It's a part of his sound.

A full note would be appreciable different.  Whether this matters outside of a recording studio seems to be at the core of this discussion.

[BigRedX]

32 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

A special case, and a special talent, but Joni Mitchell down-tunes and re-tunes to various 'open' and other tunings, 'live', on stage, and plays beautifully all evening. Gifted, maybe, or just lucky..?

IME you can get away with it more on the guitar where the difference between string gauges is less than that on a bass.

I  need a chunkier string for drop D on a guitar partly because of how I play and partly because I favour a set that is light top heavy bottom.

I've tried tuning the E string down to D on the bass. It was horrible and both sound and feel.

[Muzz]

I use a drop D Tuner on all my basses, and I never have any tension issues for a song or two...and I like a higher tension string. If I played the whole time in full FCGD tuning, I'd look at it, but as I say I'm not precious about a couple of songs. I also have a Dingwall 4. 😀

On the OP's original topic, I've played it both ways (we play it a lot, people love it), and I like using the higher D...I think it sounds better in terms of the song's dynamics.

And on the whole 'detuning' thing, one of the advantages of moving to modelling/FRFR/FOH/in-ears is that I have presets for a half-step or even a full step down without touching the bass...it's the future... 😁

Edited September 17, 2018 by Muzz

[Cuzzie]

@BigRedX you may be more sensitive, for me, with or without a D tuner.

Bass with a Zero Fret, DR DDT strings or if you like flats LaBella 1954 originals which are like ropes.

Never an issue

[uk_lefty]

11 minutes ago, Muzz said:

On the OP's original topic, I've played it both ways (we play it a lot, people love it), and I like using the higher D...I think it sounds better in terms of the song's dynamics.

And that should really be the conclusion... What do you think suits it best the way your band wants to play it? Even if you're backing a Bryan Adams tribute act, are you a tribute bassist note for note? Go with what works best for your band in your performance. 

[Mastodon2]

A bass set up for E standard then dropped down to D sounds superb to me and I don't have any problems with note definition at all. I find the slightly lower tension on the D really lets it growl - have a listen to Tim Commerford on the first RATM album for an example of how it gets just that little extra snarl and bite, it's lovely. Of course, your mileage may vary, particularly if using hollow bodies, or you like super high tension to stop the strings from breathing a bit.

Also to answer a question earlier about hipshot detuners "shifting" and not flipping perfectly between tunings if used repeatedly, I find mine to be completely reliable on my Yamaha Attitude LTD II. Check the E, if it's out then you flip the lever to drop to the lower tuning, adjust the machine head and close the lever to raise back up and check again. Once the E is in, open the lever and check where the D is, then close the lever and adjust the little tuning wheel, open the lever and check the D. If it's still out, close the lever and adjust the wheel again until you get both of them bang on. Once it's set up, as long as your E doesn't go flat your D will always be perfect. Once you understand the process it adds maybe 20 seconds onto tuning your bass, it's very easy to get it right once once you know how.

There is a video from Hipshot on how to do this on Youtube - ironically not on their own channel, but easy to find. They could be a little clearer with the instructions on their website. If you try to tune the E with the lever closed (so you're in the higher tuning setting) every time to drop to D and raise back to E it will go flat and then the D will go out of tune also. It's a little counter-intuitive, you tune the E note while in the D setting, but once you know what you're doing they're 100% reliable. I don't think Michael Manring's music would even work if these Hipshot gadgets were not 100% accurate when used correctly, his tunings would be flat and sharp all over the place and it would sound terrible.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Mastodon2

[missis sumner]

Hmmm... anyone got a hipshot drop tuner they want to sell?

[Unknown_User]

I was confused when I saw the title of this thread.  Why would you put it in drop D?  I've twigged it now!

My confession: we've been playing this for a few months now in my covers band and when I learnt it, I just searched for some tab online and went from that without actually playing along to the original, because I didn't want to have to listen to it over and over because it's so simple and boring. 

So far, I think I've gotten away with it and no one has noticed....

[BigRedX]

23 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@BigRedX you may be more sensitive, for me, with or without a D tuner.

Bass with a Zero Fret, DR DDT strings or if you like flats LaBella 1954 originals which are like ropes.

Never an issue

TBH I've yet to try a set of DR strings that I like, and I've tried plenty (although not DDT), and at DR prices I'm unlikely to by a set just to see if I can get on with them when previous experience says I probably won't.

11 minutes ago, Mastodon2 said:

A bass set up for E standard then dropped down to D sounds superb to me and I don't have any problems with note definition at all. I find the slightly lower tension on the D really lets it growl - have a listen to Tim Commerford on the first RATM album for an example of how it gets just that little extra snarl and bite, it's lovely. Of course, your mileage may vary, particularly if using hollow bodies, or you like super high tension to stop the strings from breathing a bit.

As someone who thinks that the 100 E in a standard 40 - 100 set is slightly too light (the others are fine), and won't use anything lighter than 130 for low B, I think my ideal tension for strings is very different to yours.

I also play a hollow body bass but find that the string feel is the same as my solid bodies ones.

[Mastodon2]

6 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

TBH I've yet to try a set of DR strings that I like, and I've tried plenty (although not DDT), and at DR prices I'm unlikely to by a set just to see if I can get on with them when previous experience says I probably won't.

As someone who thinks that the 100 E in a standard 40 - 100 set is slightly too light (the others are fine), and won't use anything lighter than 130 for low B, I think my ideal tension for strings is very different to yours.

I also play a hollow body bass but find that the string feel is the same as my solid bodies ones.

I use a 135 for a B and a 105 for an E on a 35" scale bass and 105 for an E on a 34". I do have another bass with some light strings on.

The issue with hollow bodies isn't the string feel but the note reproduction, they do lose some punch over a solid body. I could see how a hollow body in D without a really tight string could sound flobby and loose.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Stylon Pilson said:

Surely you could ask the same question about originals bands, and the answer would be applicable to both scenarios?

S.P.

I suppose it depends what kinds of gigs you go too. Most of the originals bands I go and see are in small venues and at best only half the set will be material that has already been recorded and released.

[Dad3353]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

...only half the set will be material that has already been recorded and released.

But they have actually played it before, surely..? 

[pineweasel]

I like playing this one live, despite not liking the original particularly. Drop D with a Hipshot extender (agree with previous posters, they are excellent and, set up correctly, the tuning is rock solid). Another thing to enjoy is that there's no bass in the first verse, so you get to come in for the chorus with a neat fill.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

But they have actually played it before, surely..? 

And once again you have totally missed the point.

[Dad3353]