Is volume killing smaller gigs?

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Lozz196 said:

It is possible for bands with big backline to play at non ridiculous volumes. In my old punk covers band me and the two guitarists all had 412s, yet given that the drummer was very fast, and played with the lightest sticks possible we had to match his volume, which wasn`t much at all, so we weren`t a loud band in any way shape or form. But the depth and quality of the sound was great. When we reformed we all had much smaller gear,1x12s etc, again played at the same volume but the sound wasn`t the same anymore. Almost like punk-band-lite or decaffeinated punk.

That’s the hearing loss and tinnitus for you.

[Phil Starr]

14 hours ago, mikel said:

Then he is a poor drummer. You play for the music. If the music demands a light touch then a good drummer can play everything they would play flat out at a volume you can talk over. Its part of the art of drumming, control.

 

20 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

A drummer I know will only play with rim-shots. It`s actually painful at times. He insists that`s just how he plays, and for everything else he`s faultless, the most accurate timing drummer I`ve ever played with. But due to said rim-shots he has to mic his own bass drum up and have an amp by his side as otherwise he can`t hear it. Essentially for most pub sized venues he would make any band he was in not bookable - at least not for a second booking.

There is another possible explanation. Drummers more than anyone else tend to have hearing loss problems. Sound levels for drummers are frequently 3-6db higher than for the rest of the band and average out around the 103dB level. HSE don't have any recommended times for exposure at that level on their ready reckoner but 15mins exposure at that level will cause permanent hearing loss!

Basically unless your drummer has worn ear defenders from the start then they will have damaged some of their inner ear and will struggle/fail to detect certain frequencies. As their hearing fails they will probably want everything turned up to compensate for their hearing loss. Might be worth gently suggesting to them that they get their hearing checked.

[mikel]

5 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

 

There is another possible explanation. Drummers more than anyone else tend to have hearing loss problems. Sound levels for drummers are frequently 3-6db higher than for the rest of the band and average out around the 103dB level. HSE don't have any recommended times for exposure at that level on their ready reckoner but 15mins exposure at that level will cause permanent hearing loss!

Basically unless your drummer has worn ear defenders from the start then they will have damaged some of their inner ear and will struggle/fail to detect certain frequencies. As their hearing fails they will probably want everything turned up to compensate for their hearing loss. Might be worth gently suggesting to them that they get their hearing checked.

I have been drumming for over 50 years and have tinnitus quite badly, not just from drumming but from listening to loud music and playing in even louder bands back in the day.

I now wear hearing protection when playing but as I said, in my current drumming band we practice and gig at a volume I could easily not use it. We rehearse at a volume you can talk over and gig so we can hear each other clearly without in ears. The guitarist gets the tone he wants from a 1 x 12 20 watt valve combo. I learned to play quietly over the last three years and its a revelation. The different tones and sounds available from a single drum or cymbal are obvious when you play lightly.

[Phil Starr]

8 minutes ago, mikel said:

I have been drumming for over 50 years and have tinnitus quite badly, not just from drumming but from listening to loud music and playing in even louder bands back in the day.

I now wear hearing protection when playing but as I said, in my current drumming band we practice and gig at a volume I could easily not use it. We rehearse at a volume you can talk over and gig so we can hear each other clearly without in ears. The guitarist gets the tone he wants from a 1 x 12 20 watt valve combo. I learned to play quietly over the last three years and its a revelation. The different tones and sounds available from a single drum or cymbal are obvious when you play lightly.

My sympathy, not least because I now have a little tinnitus too, playing next to the cymbals with inexperienced drummers,  I put off ear protection for too long because I found it felt cut off from the rest of the band. Now I'm a little cut off from ordinary conversation in any noisy environment as well as the band. A case of don't do what I did

[molan]

3 hours ago, dlloyd said:

More and more pub gigs are going to disappear because fewer people are socialising in pubs. In the last 20 years, 17% of pubs have closed. Beer sales in pubs have dropped from 24 million barrels per year to 12 million barrels. 

It's not the fault of crappy sound for bands and it's not the fault of the smoking ban.

20 years ago the kids who were going to see bands in the middle of the week had a choice of four or five TV channels and had no internet. I probably wouldn't bother going to see bands nowadays either.

I guess the two working landlords who told me their tales of woe were wrong then. . .

[Les]

Totally get what @molan is saying and I've seen it happen. I'm not sure it's as prevalent today as it was if I'm honest. 

I gig a lot so I'm not the most avid band watcher but the ones I do see seem to get the volume rightish.

Gear is much better than it was years ago so maybe it's easier to get right.

[molan]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Large rigs is mostly down to trying to realise the dreams of being a failed rockstar - that Marshall stack is iconic - and of course the only way to get “that sound”.

 

idiots.

Our lead guitarist uses his amp set to 5w into a mic’d up 1x12” and it sounds amazing. 

Doesnt even crank the master volume when he’s at 5w, it’s easily loud enough. 

Sometimes at rehearsals we give him a treat and let him go to 15w, unmic’d 😂

We rehearse in a large hall with thick carpets so it’s not banging around the room and deafening us. 

[cheddatom]

Drummers are getting some stick in here! I play drums in a few bands. One of them I play very loud but that is metal. The rest I think I'm quite controlled. I play bass in a band with a very controlled drummer - first band I've ever been in without wearing hearing protection! 

On the other hand I play with a couple of bassists who have way too much low end in their sound and turn up way too loud! And still claim they can't hear themselves!

[FinnDave]

3 minutes ago, cheddatom said:

Drummers are getting some stick in here! I play drums in a few bands. One of them I play very loud but that is metal. The rest I think I'm quite controlled. I play bass in a band with a very controlled drummer - first band I've ever been in without wearing hearing protection! 

On the other hand I play with a couple of bassists who have way too much low end in their sound and turn up way too loud! And still claim they can't hear themselves!

Drummers who can't drum quietly are simply bad drummers. Most of the drummers I play with can play at any level from soft to loud without a second thought.

I'd say the same logic applies to bass players who use too much low end and then say they can't hear - they need to learn to get it right as well.

[Marvin]

This is becoming a more prominent issue as time goes on. As an audience member, I absolutely loathe bands that feel they have to play loud, there's simply no reason for it. This isn't just a drummer thing, it applies to guitarists and bass players. I've been to gigs where drummers are hitting the hell out of their kit, where guitarists are using full stacks and bass players 810 fridges...and all in small venues, small pubs even. It's ludicrous.

As the volume goes up the quality of what you hear simply goes down, and the gear might be able to handle these volumes but people's ear sure as hell can't.

3 gigs stick in my mind for just awful sound. One was a local covers band (that I stupidly ended up joining when they changed to do originals). They were playing a small local pub and I walked out. The bass player and guitars just seemed to be in a volume war. A couple of years back I went to watch The Dammed, that was god awful as well. I was incredibly lucky to be wearing the jeans I'd worn to practice the night before and left a pair of earplugs in my back pocket. It was just a loud mush of noise. Finally, a gig that was totally ruined by a crap sound engineer was when I watched Dodgy at a small local venue. During the second set the SE just kept ramping up the volume and made the band sound awful. This was a real shame as they really are very good, and underrated musicians.

I'm very fortunate at the moment in that I play in a band that will not play loud. It's to the point where, in order to keep my volume down I'm using the -10db switch on my amp. Our guitarist simply won't play with a drummer who can't control dynamics and our drumming will rarely use sticks as he said  "they're too loud, they even annoy me". Our drummer usually uses hot rods, and the other evening, even at village hall gig, he used brushes because the reverb of the room made the snare sound so loud.

There's simply no need for these ridiculous volumes.

[cheddatom]

9 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

Drummers who can't drum quietly are simply bad drummers. Most of the drummers I play with can play at any level from soft to loud without a second thought.

I'd say the same logic applies to bass players who use too much low end and then say they can't hear - they need to learn to get it right as well.

I agree, it's just a Bad Musician thing. You should tailor your sound to suit your band, and listen to everyone else as well as yourself. Those that don't are just bad musicians, and they come in all forms

[EBS_freak]

21 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

I'd say the same logic applies to bass players who use too much low end and then say they can't hear - they need to learn to get it right as well.

In the interests of balance... and cutting the drummers some slack... I do get amused about the posts on here by people that they absolutely must get the fundamental from their bass cab. Congratulations to you guys, you are part of the problem. Mushy muddly low end, often compensated for by not cutting it... but by boosting everything else so the perception of mud is lessened.

[dlloyd]

Just now, molan said:

I guess the two working landlords who told me their tales of woe were wrong then. . .

Well, they're having to adapt to the changing demographic and number of pub-goers.

People go to the pub for different reasons. To meet up with friends, for conversation, to get out of the house, out of boredom, to be entertained, to get drunk, etc... 

Those that want to meet up with friends and chat in a neutral situation still tend to do that, although social media has undoubtedly had an effect on numbers going on the off-chance they will bump into friends. Those that went purely for entertainment/out of boredom are more likely to sit at home watching on demand TV, playing video games, going on the internet, drinking a bottle of wine in the comfort of their own home.

Putting on bands mid-week used to be a sure-fire way of getting people into the pub on quiet days. Friday and Saturday nights were always busy but weekdays tended to be quiet. Bands would attract punters in the 18-30 group who didn't want to be bored at home but didn't necessarily feel any need to interact with others. Gigs in pubs, at least those that I went to, were never quiet, and the sound was never great but people still went to them. There was never any chance of conversation.

Now, you're far less likely to be able to fill a pub with people who are just there to watch musicians play (regardless of sound quality) and have a pint by themselves. I'd say there's more demand for bands who are there as background music rather than the main event, and for that reason sound quality is more important than it used to be.

 

[NoRhino]

Great topic.  One of the bands I belong to plays a regular gig where, despite our guitarists' tiny 18W Honeyboy amps, the bar manager always wants us to turn the volume down.  Our next rehearsal is intended to run through the set at very low volume to see if we can do it, which we know we can, then take those settings to the next gig at that venue. 

I'm looking forward to it.  

 

I played a huge PA gig with a rock band on Friday and the onstage volume from the monitors was shockingly loud. We did ask soundperson to turn them down but it was all a mush.  Punters did say the FOH sound was excellent so who are we to complain?

[operative451]

I am so thankful my 'drummer' is a laptop..

The most recent big gigs i've been too have been insanely loud, to the point where i can't actually hear the band because of my tinnitus shrieking in protest!  At least with 'my' stuff we're all about the digital amp modelers, plus its really important to hear the words as they're comedy* songs..

This is a super useful thread BTW, my 'band' is playing our first gig for a while in a small venue locally, and i've often wondered if our kit has enough oomph for gigging... But it sounds like we should be fine!

*Well, we think they're funny..

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, cheddatom said:

I agree, it's just a Bad Musician thing. You should tailor your sound to suit your band, and listen to everyone else as well as yourself. Those that don't are just bad musicians, and they come in all forms

Quite agree. My sound for my current band is just about as far removed from how I like bass to sound as possible (I love the warm, rich Ampeggy sound) but it`s the right sound for my band.

[Monkey Steve]

Drummers getting a kicking, but in my experience it's usually the guitarists that are to blame:

Guitarist #1 playing through a 4x12 that is pointed at his ankles, stood right next to my 8x10 and across the stage from guitarist #2 who's 4x12 is also pointed at his ankles:  "You're too loud, I can't hear myself"

Me: "No, I'm the right volume, i can just hear myself above the drums.  You can only hear me because my cab is closer to your ears.  You're too loud - you need to stand where i am so that you can hear your cab"

Singer "he's right, the bass is fine, your guitar is way too loud"

Guitarist #1, doesn't move an inch: "that's not right, I can't hear myself, and anyway #2 is much louder than i am so I'm turning up"

Guitarist #2: "I can't hear myself, #1 is much louder than me, so I'm turning up"

Drummer. singer and bass player: "FFS!!"

repeat to fade

Too many stories of guitarists being complete d#cks at soundchecks, or confusing on stage sound with FOH and generally not understanding basic physics.  But a couple of favourites...possibly "favourite" is the wrong word:

1. The rhythm guitarist who thought that the number of watts his amp had was a measure of how good it is - the more the better - who got a 200W Blackstar and then had to drive it loud to get it to distort.   (everybody else knows that the fewer the watts, the better a valve amp sounds (I once did a gig playing guitar with a 5w class A Marshall - had to get it far enough away from the drums for separation and I wouldn't recommend it for even a small gig, but it coped brilliantly for what was playing a few songs at a back garden BBQ and sounded great without going through the PA) but guitarists seem to think that having more watts and needing to drive the amp much harder to get it sounding good than they would have had to do for a smaller amp is a good thing rather than an utterly stupid thing)
2. The lead guitarist who would do the soundcheck and agree that everything was fine, then turn up a couple of notches as he came on stage because "all he could hear was the bass so he needed to turn up" and when people told him that we didn't sound that great would blame me because the bass was clearly too loud.  Even if everything was mic'd and going through the PA, it was never his fault, always mine.
3. The rhythm guitarist (not one of mine) who was doing a gig at the Underworld and kept being told by the soundman that he had to turn it down because he was drowning everything else on stage out and he wasn't even going through the PA.  Guitarist refused on the basis that "that was his sound".  Soundman smirked and let him get on with it...they didn't go down well that night

Edited September 20, 2018 by Monkey Steve

[discreet]

Every day I thank God our drummer can (and does) play quietly and the whole band play (and sing) for the song. Without exception most bands are too loud. It absolutely boils my goat and mixes my metaphors.

Part of the problem is that a lot of players play too much (even in covers bands). A good player is one that doesn't feel the need to fill every nanosecond of a song with noise. Less is more. You get a whole band where everyone overplays and you have a mess.

And then of course the volume war begins and everyone's working against each other. Result: a mess, a racket, irritation all round and people walking out.

Even today there is still an almost macho attitude where excessive volume is seen as 'manly' in some way. And there are still those who turn up to gigs with way too much gear and claim they have to be loud 'to get their sound'. This may have been true at one time but it certainly isn't now. It's selfish and its counter-productive.

Irresponsibly loud bands and (frankly) bad playing and bad attitudes are doing no-one any favours. If a band fires up in my local and they're too loud, then I'll walk away, regardless of how good they are.

If you think deafening your audience is in any way entertaining for anyone, then you must be more nuts than I am, which is saying a very great deal.

[Lozz196]

Def not only drummers to blame, have suffered it with guitarists in the past, especially in the form of No 2 as per @Monkey Steves post above.

 

[discreet]

4 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Def not only drummers to blame, have suffered it with guitarists in the past, especially in the form of No 2 as per @Monkey Steves post above.

Yep. Went for an audition once at which the guitarist insisted on playing full tilt through a Dual Showman in a room about the size of a toilet. I lasted about ten minutes, then packed up and left.

I had been wearing rudimentary ear protection, but even so my ears were whistling next day. Why? Why? WHY??

[Roger2611]

Really interesting posts here especially talking about losing the amps and just going IEM monitoring, I would really like some kind of tutorial into how best to integrate this into a band situation, Yodaclub doesn't have it's own PA, we always use the venue PA so are very much at the mercy of the sound engineer, but as we are massively reliant on close vocal harmonies going In Ear would be brilliant for us but I really don't understand whether I could incorporate that into how we gig? 

In the rock band I have just joined the new guitarist has just gone out, on advice given, and brought a 15 watt Fender valve amp rather than a 50 watt Marshall which should now mean that for pub gigs we are going to have to work around his volume to make the songs work (I am sort of hoping that will keep the Marshall stack equipped rhythm guitarist under control) our drummer is not especially loud so I am hoping we can keep levels very sensible for the pub gigs 

[chris_b]

I've been in bands who have been asked to turn down. Been told we're not coming back because of the volume and seen many gigs restrained and actually closed down by neighbours.

Not my fault (I blame the band leader, I was just following orders!). So yes, volume is killing gigs. Standing in the middle of it, it's also killing me.

[discreet]

10 minutes ago, Roger2611 said:

...guitarist has bought a 15 watt Fender valve amp... so I am hoping we can keep levels very sensible...

It's a step in the right direction, but a 15-watt guitar valve amp can still get very loud.  Good luck.

Edited September 20, 2018 by discreet

[Lozz196]

Just now, discreet said:

It's a step in the right direction, but a 15-watt guitar valve amp can still get very loud.  Good luck.

Yeah and those Fender amps seemed to be voiced to really hit the loud-spots.

[Monkey Steve]

5 minutes ago, Roger2611 said:

Really interesting posts here especially talking about losing the amps and just going IEM monitoring, I would really like some kind of tutorial into how best to integrate this into a band situation, Yodaclub doesn't have it's own PA, we always use the venue PA so are very much at the mercy of the sound engineer, but as we are massively reliant on close vocal harmonies going In Ear would be brilliant for us but I really don't understand whether I could incorporate that into how we gig? 

In the rock band I have just joined the new guitarist has just gone out, on advice given, and brought a 15 watt Fender valve amp rather than a 50 watt Marshall which should now mean that for pub gigs we are going to have to work around his volume to make the songs work (I am sort of hoping that will keep the Marshall stack equipped rhythm guitarist under control) our drummer is not especially loud so I am hoping we can keep levels very sensible for the pub gigs 

I'd suggest that 50w is the maximum you'd ever need for a valve guitar amp for any gig, anywhere, ever.  The smaller the amp, the lower the volume needed to achieve the best distorted sound (if that's what you're after).  100w amps aren't anywhere like twice as loud as 50w amps (I think the volume difference is about...pause while i google it...3 dbs) but often they seem twice as loud because the guitarist doesn't understand the concept of headroom and has to drive the amp much harder to get  the sound he's after.

The Beatles played through AC15s and they could be heard over Ringo...

Actually, one of my old guitarists had a tiny 15w or 20w Mesa Boogie head for all pub gigs and it never let him down - although Mesa Rectifiers are excellent as they seem to make the same sound on their dirty channel regardless of the volume control setting so there's no volume issue if the guitarist has a much bigger amp...other than the problem of getting the guitarist to realise that volume controls go down as well as up.  If that's an issue and the guitarist has to drive an amp that is way too large quite hard to get  "their sound" then on pain of death make them buy some sort of attenuator - I personally favour a Marshall Power Brake, although they haven't been in production for years, but there are plenty of alternatives.