Is volume killing smaller gigs?

[JPJ]

There is no excuse for being too loud these days. We used to be stupidly loud, but having bought our own basic PA have slowly brought the stage levels down to were I can speak to the drummer without shouting, and the FoH is at a comfortable 90-92db. Both guitarists use Marshall 50w heads into 2x12 cabs, I use either an SWR or an Aguilar AG500 through a 4x10.

How do I know 90-92db is comfortable ? I have a cheap app on my phone. Go out front, turn your back to the band and listen. You’ll soon know what needs turning down (as against up). Many good sound engineers have taught me its better to subtract than add. The drums are in the PA but only to give the kick drum a chance to project. The guitars and bass are in the PA because it’s easier to get a balanced sound that way. We have a fiddle player who shares the vocal monitor to hear herself, so again keeping the on stage levels down helps her pitch. Finally, use the channel eq’s to create a space for each instrument or drum. One of my best weapons is a channel compressor on the two guitar channels. Both guitarists invariably tweak their amp settings (‘turn up’) after the first couple of numbers. My friendly compressors mean the FoH stays exactly as I set it despite their knob twiddling. 

 

[discreet]

15 minutes ago, JPJ said:

90-92db is comfortable...

Did a gig last week where the venue had a prominent db meter visible from the stage. We were told the limit was set at 105db, but we got nowhere near that. Maybe 95db peak for a very short time during our loudest number. We're quiet, so a 90db band is very quiet.

20 minutes ago, JPJ said:

Many good sound engineers have taught me it's better to subtract than add.

This. Can also be applied effectively to EQ. The number of backline bass amps with a graphic EQ I've come across with the sliders whacked up to maximum and with the gain and master maxed out too. Unbelieveable! Less is more!

[Beedster]

I might be breaching a new forum rule by posting without reading the whole thread here

A few years ago we started picking up gigs simply because we were quiet, landlords in a few places simply liked bands that could entertain without being loud, and there were apparently not many of them around. Playing DB and having a skilful drummer who could tap as well as hit helped a lot also. I love playing loud, but only when it's appropriate. I prefer quiet.

[discreet]

3 minutes ago, Beedster said:

...we started picking up gigs simply because we were quiet, landlords in a few places simply liked bands that could entertain without being loud, and there were apparently not many of them around...

We're finding the same thing. I think it also helps if you're not a metal band.

[dlloyd]

36 minutes ago, Beedster said:

A few years ago we started picking up gigs simply because we were quiet, landlords in a few places simply liked bands that could entertain without being loud,

We were pretty much in the same boat... acoustic guitars and double bass, only moderately amplified, only percussion was the singer's shaky egg.

The downside is when people sit at a table four foot from the middle of the "stage" with their backs to you. Might as well be a jukebox.

[peteb]

Now where to start…

I come from a land where valve amps & 412 cabs are standard, not to mention 410 (or 610 / 810) bass cabs and loud drummers. This is playing 70s/80s/90s hard rock and, yes, you do need to be pretty loud to be authentic. You might not like that, but frankly I couldn’t give a care less – you’re not going to come and see any of these bands and you wouldn’t have a hope in hell of getting through an audition to join one (even if you wanted to)!

Now this not to say that there is not such a thing as too loud – there is always a compromise between volume and the room you are playing in. Frankly I do want to keep what is left of my hearing (quite a few of us have lost a bit of the top end in the ear nearest the cymbals but very few have tinnitus), so ear protection is a good idea. But the whole point was summed up by a punter who once told me, “you go to a pub and it’s like watching a band at St George’s Hall in the eighties”.

A few years back I was in a covers band made up of some very capable players who were well known from the local scene in the 80s. We gigged for over 10 years, generally to pretty decent audiences. Funnily enough, there is one pub that we used to pack out where I also used to play with another band who didn’t get anywhere near the same sized crowd. With the second band, the landlord often used to complain that we were too loud, despite being much quieter than the band who got much more people into his pub. It seems that no matter how loud the first band was, it was never louder than the sound of the cash registers behind the bar. I should also point out that we used to turn plenty of gigs down because we knew that the pub wasn’t big enough, or we had heard that they had noise issues with neighbours.

Of course, this is very much genre related. I recently did a load of deps for a R&B band where the guitarist used a small combo on a stand and I used a Class D amp and a couple of 112s. It wasn’t too loud, sounded fine and the band got loads of gigs in smaller pubs. Great fun and the band did well (and continues to do so). Horses for courses…

Edited September 20, 2018 by peteb

[peteb]

12 hours ago, dlloyd said:

Well, they're having to adapt to the changing demographic and number of pub-goers.

People go to the pub for different reasons. To meet up with friends, for conversation, to get out of the house, out of boredom, to be entertained, to get drunk, etc... 

Those that want to meet up with friends and chat in a neutral situation still tend to do that, although social media has undoubtedly had an effect on numbers going on the off-chance they will bump into friends. Those that went purely for entertainment/out of boredom are more likely to sit at home watching on demand TV, playing video games, going on the internet, drinking a bottle of wine in the comfort of their own home.

Putting on bands mid-week used to be a sure-fire way of getting people into the pub on quiet days. Friday and Saturday nights were always busy but weekdays tended to be quiet. Bands would attract punters in the 18-30 group who didn't want to be bored at home but didn't necessarily feel any need to interact with others. Gigs in pubs, at least those that I went to, were never quiet, and the sound was never great but people still went to them. There was never any chance of conversation.

Now, you're far less likely to be able to fill a pub with people who are just there to watch musicians play (regardless of sound quality) and have a pint by themselves. I'd say there's more demand for bands who are there as background music rather than the main event, and for that reason sound quality is more important than it used to be.

 

The only thing I would say about that is you can still get people out to actually watch a band, but it is undoubtedly more difficult than ten / fifteen years ago. Apart from that I think that you are spot on.

It seems to me that these days, pubs need to have a USP i.e. offer something other than just be a boozer on the corner of the street. This might be offering decent food, craft beers, a quirky atmosphere or a number of other things, including live music. This seems to have led to a number of pubs putting on bands despite being totally unsuitable or the landlord having no idea about what promoting / hosting a gig actually entails. Established music pubs (in the right area) where the landlord actually has to a clue generally tend to do OK.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by peteb

[discreet]

19 minutes ago, peteb said:

This is playing 70s/80s/90s hard rock and, yes, you do need to be pretty loud to be authentic. You might not like that, but frankly I couldn’t care less – you’re not going to come and see any of these bands and you wouldn’t have a hope in hell of getting through an audition to join one...

A little presumptuous, I feel...

[peteb]

48 minutes ago, discreet said:

A little presumptuous, I feel...

I think not...! 

If you don't like loud music then you are unlikely to stick around to watch a loud hard rock band. Similarly, if you don't understand the genre and walk in to a rehearsal room only to sneer at the guitar player's 412, or if you are a drummer who wants to play cymbals with your fingers, then you are going to get laughed out of the room (if you're lucky).

This type of music is like any other in that you have to understand the genre if you are going to be able to play it properly... 

Edited September 20, 2018 by peteb

[discreet]

3 minutes ago, peteb said:

I think not...! 

My point is, just because I currently play in a quiet band and don't like loud bands in pubs, it doesn't necessarily mean I don't like loud rock music in an appropriate context nor be capable of passing an audition to join such a band should I choose to do so. At least that's what I thought you were implying..?

[peteb]

2 minutes ago, discreet said:

My point is, just because I currently play in a quiet band and don't like loud bands in pubs, it doesn't necessarily mean I don't like loud rock music in an appropriate context nor be capable of passing an audition to join such a band should I choose to do so. At least that's what I thought you were implying..?

Yep, that's pretty much what I was implying...

 

[Les]

ok, I'm sorted 

 

[intime-nick]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

 

Now this not to say that there is not such a thing as too loud – there is always a compromise between volume and the room you are playing in. Frankly I do want to keep what is left of my hearing (quite a few of us have lost a bit of the top end in the ear nearest the cymbals but very few have tinnitus), so ear protection is a good idea. But the whole point was summed up by a punter who once told me, “you go to a pub and it’s like watching a band at St George’s Hall in the eighties”.

 

Is that St George’s in Bradford ? If so, I saw a few bands there including Yngwie Malmsteen and it sounded like shite (and he had a few 4x12s 😉) - waaay too loud, and I’m sure it was the start of my hearing loss adventure.  As for being ‘pretty loud to be authentic’ - I’ve been in many bands with that attitude and most of them sounded like crap in the usual pub environments due to the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.  There is a massive difference between loud and quality and in a lot of places, with a lot of bands, the first replaces the second due to some bizarre insistence that you have to be loud to be any good. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by intime-nick

[discreet]

2 minutes ago, peteb said:

Yep, that's pretty much what I was implying...

So... you presume to know what music I like, what I've done in the past, what I'm doing now and what I may or may not do in future?

OK, FYI: I like loud rock music in an appropriate context and am capable of passing an audition to join such a band should I choose to do so!

[Woodinblack]

Our group is way too loud, the drummer is one of those 'its only fun playing it loud'. He is a good drummer apart from dynamics. So we turn up to match the drums. I do the sound in leu of anyone else doing it, so I set the sound up, and then the guitarist complains he can't be heard (when he is the loudest thing), it would be nice if someone else could do it, but there is noone to do so.

We would certainly sound better if we were quieter, but I have tried a lot and it isn't going to happen, so I just have to accept that. I certainly wouldn't come and watch us at that volume!  

[Norris]

Our trio play mainly 70s rock in pubs. We take pride at playing at a reasonable volume yet still with the energy appropriate to the style of music. The guitarist can still make his guitar sing, wail and feed back, and will even complain if we are too loud. I suppose we are lucky in having a drummer with jazz influences (his favourite drummer is Mitch Mitchell), but also our usual dep drummer can play with appropriate dynamics. It still kicks donkey. It still rocks out. It's still got heft ()

We listen to each other. We rarely sound check either. We know what the knobs do on our amps, and set them appropriately for the room before playing a note. I've never had to wear ear protection either. The guitarist wears ear plugs for his "name" band as they play in larger venues, but never when we play in pubs as it's never loud enough to require them

Landlords are happy. We don't drive people out of the pub, and the staff can still hear the bar orders that keep the tills busy

Just because you play a "loud" genre of music, you don't have to give everyone hearing damage. In fact the quieter it is (to a certain point), the better and clearer the sound

As for having to crank it to get "the sound", the guitarist's Mesa Boogie amp is set to a clean sound and the distortion/overdrive comes purely from pedals. The only slight tweak he has done is to stick a small piece of gaffer tape on the speaker grille over the centre of the cone to dampen a harsh, piercing spot that can occur about 15' away in the crowd

[Muzz]

59 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Our group is way too loud, the drummer is one of those 'its only fun playing it loud'. He is a good drummer apart from dynamics. So we turn up to match the drums. I do the sound in leu of anyone else doing it, so I set the sound up, and then the guitarist complains he can't be heard (when he is the loudest thing), it would be nice if someone else could do it, but there is noone to do so.

We would certainly sound better if we were quieter, but I have tried a lot and it isn't going to happen, so I just have to accept that. I certainly wouldn't come and watch us at that volume!  

Coupla things: 'He is a good drummer apart from the dynamics' is kinda like 'He is a good bassist apart from the notes', and if your guitarist can't hear himself, point his cab at his head; I'm gonna guess he's standing in front of (at worst*) a 412 pointing at his knees - one of those tilt-back things works a treat, and costs about a tenner. We did this with a Dep, and he soon got the point... my tinnitus really kicked in (yeah, I know it's a cumulative thing, but there was one gig when it started properly, and it's never stopped) after a gig where we were squeezed into a booth area in a chain pub in Leeds, and the second (dep) guitard had had to put his 112 combo onto a bar stool at nearly head height behind me. In context, we weren't massively loud, not was he, but the combination of his tone (again, not necessarily bad in context, just harsh close up) and the 112 pointing at my head did the trick. 😕

 

* Actually, I've realised 'at worst' could be a full 2x412 Martial Stack, in which case there's no hope, because he's already deaf... 😕

[operative451]

13 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Very possibly. IIRC, he claimed to have served at one time with a certain military formation based in Herefordshire (or something like that).

Factoid: there are more people claiming that than were ever in it, and also, if you've been in it you're not supposed tell anyone! And believe it or not, i know this cos my schizophrenic d*d used to claim it too... Although its quite possible he believed it!

[peteb]

7 hours ago, intime-nick said:

Is that St George’s in Bradford ? If so, I saw a few bands there including Yngwie Malmsteen and it sounded like shite (and he had a few 4x12s 😉) - waaay too loud, and I’m sure it was the start of my hearing loss adventure.  As for being ‘pretty loud to be authentic’ - I’ve been in many bands with that attitude and most of them sounded like crap in the usual pub environments due to the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.  There is a massive difference between loud and quality and in a lot of places, with a lot of bands, the first replaces the second due to some bizarre insistence that you have to be loud to be any good. 

I saw loads of bands at St George's Hall (a very nice old fashioned concert hall) in my youth. Most were loud with a great sound, some were too loud and sounded awful. It's no surprise that Yngwie fell into the latter category. 

Let's put it like this - for this type of music : loud = good / too loud = not good 

If you get a bad sound and turn it up then it sounds terrible. You need to understand your EQ and how everything works in a mix. Just because something is loud doesn't mean it should sound terrible. 

[Guest MoJo]

18 hours ago, discreet said:

It's a step in the right direction, but a 15-watt guitar valve amp can still get very loud.  Good luck.

My friend's hand wired 15 watt valve amp can easily hold it's own against a drummer, another guitarist and a Hartke HA3500 + Peavey 410TVX in they're classic rock pub covers band 

[Guest MoJo]

2 hours ago, Norris said:

 We take pride at playing at a reasonable volume yet still with the energy appropriate to the style of music

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Norris, it's the energy not the volume that defines the band IMHO. AC/DC would still sound like AC/DC through practice amps

[la bam]

Turning up a good sound = a louder good sound. Should be suitable as possible ng as it's not ear bleeding loud.

Turning up a bad sound = a loud bad sound.

Turning up does not make a bad sound, sound good. It just makes it louder.

[Monkey Steve]

21 minutes ago, la bam said:

Turning up a good sound = a louder good sound. Should be suitable as possible ng as it's not ear bleeding loud.

Turning up a bad sound = a loud bad sound.

Turning up does not make a bad sound, sound good. It just makes it louder.

But surely the point is that good or bad, the sound can be too loud, and there seems to be a lot of evidence on this thread that this is more often the case than needs to happen

[mrtcat]

29 minutes ago, la bam said:

Turning up a good sound = a louder good sound. Should be suitable as possible ng as it's not ear bleeding loud.

Turning up a bad sound = a loud bad sound.

Turning up does not make a bad sound, sound good. It just makes it louder.

I have to disagree. Turning up the volume of a good sound changes that sound. It can make a good sound a bad sound. That's beside the point tho. Too loud is too loud whether the sound is good or not.

[mrtcat]

12 hours ago, peteb said:

I think not...! 

If you don't like loud music then you are unlikely to stick around to watch a loud hard rock band. Similarly, if you don't understand the genre and walk in to a rehearsal room only to sneer at the guitar player's 412, or if you are a drummer who wants to play cymbals with your fingers, then you are going to get laughed out of the room (if you're lucky).

This type of music is like any other in that you have to understand the genre if you are going to be able to play it properly... 

I like loud rock music and have played in some very loud bands over the years. Even the AC/DC tribute act I used to be in rehearsed at sensible levels with sensibly sized kit. We played across large parts of Europe for years with dummy full stacks on stage. Yeah they were essential to the aesthetic but were no good for getting the right foh sound because guitar cabs are so directional that they're generally pretty awful at blowing FOH mixes even in some of the big clubs we were playing in Germany. If it's too loud for the room then either the sound engineer needs shooting or the musicians are just being a bit childish. If I walked into a rehearsal room to audition for any band to find a guitarist with a cranked 4x12 they wouldn't have to laugh me out the door. I'd happily leave them to their own childish approach.