Is volume killing smaller gigs?

[FinnDave]

47 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

And therein lies the error. It's tempting, but it may work better if everyone else turns down. OK, the mix is wrong, bot only because the 'drummer' is at the wrong gig. It highlights their incompetence, and, if that doesn't bother them, it's a sign that it's time for a change. Let him thump away, but on his own. In extreme cases, putting down one's instruments and leaving the beggar to enjoy his evening-long drum solo may get the message across. Worth a try..? 

In that particular band, it's not really worth a try. Everything has become too socially entangled - the easiest way is for me to walk away. I know drummers can play quietly without losing any their impact as I play with others who do, in a different type of band.

Last week we were on holiday in the West Country; there was a jazz trio at the pub we were staying in, and the drummer only used sticks for one number. The rest of the time, he was using brushes, beaters or his hands, drawing people into the quietest and most subtle of rhythms with his fingertips on a cymbal. The audience were a table's width from the kit, and were entranced by the whole performance. Had he been playing like a typical rock drummer, I suspect the bar would have been empty in a few minutes.

[EBS_freak]

42 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

Always mystifies me why players bang on about how lightweight and compact and loud their latest bit of kit is. If you were genuinely bothered about saving your back you'd use a decent modern PA and in ears. No amps. I absolutely love being amp free. I hear so many people say that they'd miss the feel of the bass but if you have a decent PA you can still feel it's presence and the in ears will let you comfortably hear whatever you want. Getting decent FOH sound is so much more achievable if there's no volume wars to compete with. As long as drummer is able to adjust volume accordingly then you can get lovely fat balanced sound which has more weight to it and less noise.

Indeed - I think it comes down to nobody wants to own part of a PA, or a PA in entirety - but the sad thing is, bands would sound a lot, lot better without the loud, lightweight, compact backline... and better with smaller monitors/IEMs and PA. But the dinosaur thinking of backline first will not go away anytime soon. Those that have been in the inear thread have seen the light.. and I would wager their bands, sonically at least, sound much better from an audience point of view (can't vouch for the playing itself though! :p)

[Norris]

I wonder that more punters don't sue for hearing damage. I bet that's not covered by public liability insurance 

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, FinnDave said:

Part of the problem is drummers who simply cannot control their volume. I am lucky enough to play with a few drummers who can play quietly, but also one who can't. I am seriously considering leaving that band (after more than five years) simply because the drums are always too loud, so everything else gets turned up to compensate.

My drummer is like that. He gets very annoyed when asked to play quieter. In fact he has explained that you cant play drums quietly and make them sound good. Got annoyed when i said well one out of two would be good. 🙂

I refuse to turn my bass up when they moan they cant hear me at rehearsals, but i know if i dont at the gig the mix will be very drum heavy.

Dreading his first gig with us on Friday. Its a rugby Club and i know its a low ceiling hard shiny floor. We will be using our own small PA which is waaay more than we need for this place, but i have a feeling the vocals just wont get heard as clearly as they should.

 

[fleabag]

4 minutes ago, Norris said:

I wonder that more punters don't sue for hearing damage. I bet that's not covered by public liability insurance 

Because the choice to go or stay is down to the punter.  You surely cannot sit through a loud gig with your ears fizzing and then complain

[EliasMooseblaster]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

A drummer I know will only play with rim-shots. It`s actually painful at times. He insists that`s just how he plays, and for everything else he`s faultless, the most accurate timing drummer I`ve ever played with. But due to said rim-shots he has to mic his own bass drum up and have an amp by his side as otherwise he can`t hear it. Essentially for most pub sized venues he would make any band he was in not bookable - at least not for a second booking.

Christ almighty, can you imagine if you slapped your way through an entire set and insisted that was "just how you played"? Rim-shots can be a great effect for adding emphasis in the right places, but they should surely just be that, an effect. If not used sparingly, it tires the ears pretty chuffing quickly.

[Twincam]

I would say bad sound quality is, more than volume. Btw in what I say I'm not saying the Op's sound quality was possibly bad in anyway. I'm just answering the volume question from my own point of view as a punter.

Last band I seen in a small setting they sounded excellent despite having a lot of power at there disposal for such a small stage, marshal all valve half stack. 4x10 mb cab and mb amp, Big drums, big pa. I like loud music and thought they were appropriate despite not being overly loud at all, i could still order a drink. Had great sound all round.

The band I seen before that also a 3 piece. Again a small venue but not the same place admittedly. Were a good band but sound quality wasn't great and vocals hardly heard. They had smaller pieces of equipment that i felt were appropriate for the venue and were probably the same volume as the first band. But the lower sound clarity made the volume seem much louder or not as tolerable. I could still order a drink. Again I liked the band and talent wasn't an issue. The band said the pa wasn't loud enough. But then why turn up the amps to there limit (which can't ever help tone quality with smaller equipment) and play louder??? Surely (Don't call me Shirley) playing a touch lower than the pa would of been appropriate. And they probably would of nearly been as loud anyhow.

The band I seen before the other two were in a tiny venue. And just as loud as the other two bands, infact a touch louder. There equipment was very modest in size. And they had even better sound quality than the 2 bands above. I could just about order a pint. But because of the clarity the volume wasn't as in your face and was pleasant. 

So to me volume isn't an issue, it's the quality that sometimes is. Thankfully it does seem sound quality is getting better. I'm not saying older or small equipment is bad as I've heard great bands with all vintage stuff and great bands with very very modest equipment, but I certainly think things have moved forward and not in volume. 

 

 

[M@23]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Wrong. See my post above.

Cool

Edited September 19, 2018 by M@23

[Twincam]

On another note drummers are getting a pasting in this thread lol.

[EBS_freak]

46 minutes ago, M@23 said:

Cool

Just read back - I may have come across as a bit short and rude. Apologies - it wasn't meant like that if you read it that way!

[skankdelvar]

30 minutes ago, Twincam said:

On another note drummers are getting a Paiste-ing in this thread lol.

Fixed 

[lemmywinks]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

My drummer is like that. He gets very annoyed when asked to play quieter. In fact he has explained that you cant play drums quietly and make them sound good. Got annoyed when i said well one out of two would be good. 🙂

Gonna remember that response the next time I hear that excuse!

[DaveFry]

Nikki Bacharach ( daughter of Burt ) didn't like loud .
Neither do I .( Aspie with chromesthesia )

[Twincam]

32 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

Fixed 

Ha I knew someone would better it. I thought someone might of fixed it with "Drumming" in place of pasting.

Yours is far more sophisticated. I had to look up the reference but don't tell anyone. 

[M@23]

35 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Just read back - I may have come across as a bit short and rude. Apologies - it wasn't meant like that if you read it that way!

S'all good dude. Was an interesting post. 

[mikel]

It just not professional.  Even though most of us are not pro's you should still be professional about the sound you produce.

We practice at a volume that allows us to hear every instrument and any mistakes, so we can sort them out at once. I drum in a band that can easily rehears in the singers living room, its a semi detached house and next door have never complained about the noise. When it comes to a gig we keep the volume so I dont even need ear plugs. For a lot of bands the volume is simply there to hide the poor playing.

[mikel]

5 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

A drummer I know will only play with rim-shots. It`s actually painful at times. He insists that`s just how he plays, and for everything else he`s faultless, the most accurate timing drummer I`ve ever played with. But due to said rim-shots he has to mic his own bass drum up and have an amp by his side as otherwise he can`t hear it. Essentially for most pub sized venues he would make any band he was in not bookable - at least not for a second booking.

Then he is a poor drummer. You play for the music. If the music demands a light touch then a good drummer can play everything they would play flat out at a volume you can talk over. Its part of the art of drumming, control.

[Japhet]

We usually ask the audience to tell us if there's anything wrong with the sound. We have a few 'followers' who are pretty well clued up as well which is handy. It's often difficult to get a handle on the 'out front' sound from on stage and the sound always changes as the places fill up (hopefully). I've played with some stupidly loud guitarists who maintain that they 'can't get their sound' without a cranked Marshall JCM but luckily the guitarist in my band of the last 8 years plays through a 25 watt Marshall Jubilee which sounds great at sensible volume. I think that micing up drums can be the top of the slippery slope into volume armageddon. An unmic'd kit is plenty loud enough for your average pub gig (and a bit more if your pot basher has a single eyebrow).

[bazzbass]

Live sound mixing needs a dedicated proffessional, not the guitarist or bassist to do it in a soundcheck.

You need to hear the vocals clearly.

The loudness of the drummer determines the lowest level the rest of the band can play at. Loud drummer means everything else has to be loud as well.

Pro drummers can play fast AND softly at the same time

99% of pub band drummers are NOT pro drummers.

It starts and ends with them

[LukeFRC]

16 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Indeed - I think it comes down to nobody wants to own part of a PA, or a PA in entirety - but the sad thing is, bands would sound a lot, lot better without the loud, lightweight, compact backline... and better with smaller monitors/IEMs and PA. But the dinosaur thinking of backline first will not go away anytime soon. Those that have been in the inear thread have seen the light.. and I would wager their bands, sonically at least, sound much better from an audience point of view (can't vouch for the playing itself though! :p)

Though if the bass player and the guitarist each bought a nice speaker it would cost similar to their amps, weigh less and be able to be use as practice at home and FOH at Gigs... Then IEM FTW.... 

Mind you a pet hate of mine is people who can't hear when different gain stages are pushed into distortion and while it's not as loud it hurts the ears more... just cos something is misadjusted. 

[dlloyd]

20 hours ago, molan said:

So, apologies for the long post but it genuinely worries me that more & more gigs will disappear if bands don't get their sound in order. . .

More and more pub gigs are going to disappear because fewer people are socialising in pubs. In the last 20 years, 17% of pubs have closed. Beer sales in pubs have dropped from 24 million barrels per year to 12 million barrels. 

It's not the fault of crappy sound for bands and it's not the fault of the smoking ban.

20 years ago the kids who were going to see bands in the middle of the week had a choice of four or five TV channels and had no internet. I probably wouldn't bother going to see bands nowadays either.

[lownote]

Went to the local music pub, the Burston Crown in Norfolk,  for the otherwise great band Nebula Sun recently.  It's a tiny pub.  It's a loud band anyway with bass, drums, two tenor saxes and guitar, but PA'd up?  The mixer man ( not the usual one) was doing such a loud sound check I had to go outside - and I'm half deaf.  When the band started a mate of mine who's an acoustics professional went home in protest at the volume.  When I had a gentle dig on Facebook I just got the equivalent of an invitation to enjoy sex and travel.

Another tiny local pub had a rock band setting up with 4x10s and 1x15s stacked! I left before they hit the On switch. 

Is it stupidity, wembley-envy or what?  I'm happy with loud - I play in a loudish band - but these extremes are insane. 

[EBS_freak]

Large rigs is mostly down to trying to realise the dreams of being a failed rockstar - that Marshall stack is iconic - and of course the only way to get “that sound”.

 

idiots.

[EBS_freak]

52 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Though if the bass player and the guitarist each bought a nice speaker it would cost similar to their amps, weigh less and be able to be use as practice at home and FOH at Gigs... Then IEM FTW.... 

Indeed - but trying to get a guitarist onto IEMs is very difficult!

Having been doing the IEM thing at guitar shows, guitarists would rather buy more speaker cabs than anything to do with monitoring.

[Lozz196]

It is possible for bands with big backline to play at non ridiculous volumes. In my old punk covers band me and the two guitarists all had 412s, yet given that the drummer was very fast, and played with the lightest sticks possible we had to match his volume, which wasn`t much at all, so we weren`t a loud band in any way shape or form. But the depth and quality of the sound was great. When we reformed we all had much smaller gear,1x12s etc, again played at the same volume but the sound wasn`t the same anymore. Almost like punk-band-lite or decaffeinated punk.