The best bass builder.

[ianrendall]

So who in your opinion makes the absolute pinnacle of bass guitars? By that I mean top quality materials, craftsmanship and components. 

Some might say Carl Thompson, Wal, Fodera, Alembic or Ritter. What are your thoughts?

[fretmeister]

Probably be a small group who have played all the supposed top gear.

 

I've never played a Ritter or Alembic or Carl Thompson, and only had 2 mins on a fretless Wal.

I have played Sadowsky, Marleaux, Fodera, Status, Modulus.

 

Of those - they were all lovely and very different. I thought the Marleaux was the best *for me* out of them.

 

BUT if Status went back to their older neck profile that was more C shaped rather than the D they have now... that would probably change my mind.

[Cuzzie]

Sandberg

[BigRedX]

There is no "best bass builder", just the luthier who can make the bass that suits the individual musician. 

At the level that the OP is taking about, a feature that is must-have for one musician, might make the instrument completely unsuitable for another.

Also at this level aesthetics will have a lot to do with it and that is completely subjective.

[Dood]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

There is no "best bass builder", just the luthier who can make the bass that suits the individual musician. 

At the level that the OP is taking about, a feature that is must-have for one musician, might make the instrument completely unsuitable for another.

Also at this level aesthetics will have a lot to do with it and that is completely subjective.

Which is of course very true.

 

However, for a completely bespoke option, the answer is ShukerGuitars.co.uk

[Sibob]

As has been mentioned, there is no 'best', just lots of excellent artisans who achieve the end result in different ways.
Other than that, you'll simply get a lot of members here putting forth brands that they themselves own, which is fine, but it's purely subjective.

Si

[Cuzzie]

If I can tilt  it slightly you can build in customer service, approachability, etc.

 I did mention Sandberg - Brilliant

I’ve had great dealings with Status

Waghorn guitars were excellent, I didn’t go through with the build, but a lovely chap to converse with

[ambient]

It also needs to take into account the budget.

The absolute best that I’ve tried has to be Fodera. I’ve played a couple and the quality has been amazing. They’re also one of the most expensive too.

[ianrendall]

28 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

There is no "best bass builder", just the luthier who can make the bass that suits the individual musician. 

At the level that the OP is taking about, a feature that is must-have for one musician, might make the instrument completely unsuitable for another.

Also at this level aesthetics will have a lot to do with it and that is completely subjective.

Yes, I completely agree with this. But let’s take subjectivity out of the equation and look as objectively as possible, regardless of cost, individual need, aesthetic quality, desirability and playing style.

I’m thinking in terms of the actual physical construction.

Let’s compare it to, say, a Brough Superior motorcycle where pretty much every single component is bespoke and handmade - granted the machine is not suitable for every rider but the quality and workmanship is undeniable.

Edited September 25, 2018 by ianrendall

[NJE]

Although relatively simple in appearance and construction (no multi laminate bodies or neck through etc), Tom Stenback seems to build some incredible instruments from fine materials and I believe he even makes his own strap buttons, bridges and pickups/pickup covers. They are by all accounts built to incredible tolerances and sonically brilliant. I have never seen one in the flesh but watch the videos on youtube, its like the people playing them have some sort of epiphany.

If I had a huge chunk of money to carelessly blow on a bass a Stenback and Fodera would probably be top of my list to try but that doesn't mean to say there aren't other builders that make incredible fancy wood, neck through basses. Actually I will add another to that list, I remember playing a single-cut Rob Elrick which was just out of this world quality and tone and playability.

[BigRedX]

8 minutes ago, ianrendall said:

Yes, I completely agree with this. But let’s take subjectivity out of the equation and look as objectively as possible, regardless of cost, individual need, aesthetic quality, desirability and playing style.

I’m thinking in terms of the actual physical construction.

Let’s compare it to, say, a Brough Superior motorcycle where pretty much every single component is bespoke and handmade - granted the machine is not suitable for every rider but the quality and workmanship is undeniable.

But at the kind of level I hope you are talking about, it really is all about the subjectivity. Most of what you are paying for at the top end of the market are not features that make the bass any better sounding or playing to the average musician.

Because when it comes down to it the majority of bass guitars are merely some bits of wood and metal glued and screwed together. They are essentially fairly simple things. After all the classic Fender designs were all about being able to make them with a relatively unskilled workforce to a budget that undercut their competitors. A modern cheap bass with a decent fret job, new nut and a suitable set up for the player who owns it will be very, very close the most expensive of expensive custom jobs in terms of producing a good sound in the context of a band mix live or recorded.

There are luthiers who make (or have made) the majority of the parts on their basses specifically for their basses and are not put together from standard off the self parts. Have a look at Atlansia, Gus, Overwater and Wal to name but four. However that alone doesn't make them any better than a Squier that's had a bit of extra attention from a decent luthier.

[ianrendall]

17 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

But at the kind of level I hope you are talking about, it really is all about the subjectivity. Most of what you are paying for at the top end of the market are not features that make the bass any better sounding or playing to the average musician.

Because when it comes down to it the majority of bass guitars are merely some bits of wood and metal glued and screwed together. They are essentially fairly simple things. After all the classic Fender designs were all about being able to make them with a relatively unskilled workforce to a budget that undercut their competitors. A modern cheap bass with a decent fret job, new nut and a suitable set up for the player who owns it will be very, very close the most expensive of expensive custom jobs in terms of producing a good sound in the context of a band mix live or recorded.

There are luthiers who make (or have made) the majority of the parts on their basses specifically for their basses and are not put together from standard off the self parts. Have a look at Atlansia, Gus, Overwater and Wal to name but four. However that alone doesn't make them any better than a Squier that's had a bit of extra attention from a decent luthier.

The more I read this the more I agree that subjectivity can’t be ignored. 

That $250,000 Ritter is no doubt very well made, but somewhat excessive . Carl Thompson’s Rainbow basses - some might argue also excessive but still very well made. Any more useful at a gig than a Jazz? Probably not unless you are in some sort of weird art band. 

[ped]

As mentioned I really like bass builders who make more than just the ‘chassis’ and bolt bought in components to them (simplifying it slightly). For me the top makers are the ones who make bespoke pickups, hardware and circuits themselves, or at least work with companies who make them for the builder specifically.

I also value above a lot of other factors some innovation. So that rules out most people making jazz bass clones. I think a top maker has their own design language and has a no compromise approach, making something idiosyncratic that might not sell in high volume but is the result of a no compromise way of approaching the instrument. 

So I’m going to say the likes of Vigier (carbon pioneer, weird and proprietary electronics, individual shape) and Smith (own shape, pioneered the whole game, impeccable build and instantly recognisable sound) because that’s what I own and I’m biased. hehe

[Cuzzie]

@ped agree with that and Vigier - nice stuff

Can we add BC Rich in there, not many warlock clones, they sit out there in their own

[ianrendall]

15 minutes ago, ped said:

As mentioned I really like bass builders who make more than just the ‘chassis’ and bolt bought in components to them (simplifying it slightly). For me the top makers are the ones who make bespoke pickups, hardware and circuits themselves, or at least work with companies who make them for the builder specifically.

I also value above a lot of other factors some innovation. So that rules out most people making jazz bass clones. I think a top maker has their own design language and has a no compromise approach, making something idiosyncratic that might not sell in high volume but is the result of a no compromise way of approaching the instrument. 

So I’m going to say the likes of Vigier (carbon pioneer, weird and proprietary electronics, individual shape) and Smith (own shape, pioneered the whole game, impeccable build and instantly recognisable sound) because that’s what I own and I’m biased. hehe

This. Much more eloquently put that my mumblings. A luthier that micro engineers every single element of the instrument right down to the contours to get the ‘best’ instrument possible. 

[ambient]

This is quite interesting, kind of sums up my opinion on things too.

 

 

[jacko]

18 minutes ago, ped said:

 

So I’m going to say the likes of Vigier (carbon pioneer, weird and proprietary electronics, individual shape) 

HMMM.  Alembic developed the first graphite neck-thru instruments alongside Geoff Gould of Modulus five years before Vigier came into being. They also developed the first active electronics, built the first low 'B' five string (for Jimmy Johnson)  and pioneered the use of exotic hardwoods for aesthetic and functional purposes. 

They're a wonderful company to deal with, involving the customer in every aspect of design / choice of materials / electronics package and even shape (if you pay them enough). If you take the time to visit them in california they are the nicest family you could hope to meet. And they have cake 😃.  

Not everyone likes Alembic instruments - I do (after trying Wal, warwick tobias etc). 

[ped]

31 minutes ago, jacko said:

HMMM.  Alembic developed the first graphite neck-thru instruments alongside Geoff Gould of Modulus five years before Vigier came into being. They also developed the first active electronics, built the first low 'B' five string (for Jimmy Johnson)  and pioneered the use of exotic hardwoods for aesthetic and functional purposes. 

They're a wonderful company to deal with, involving the customer in every aspect of design / choice of materials / electronics package and even shape (if you pay them enough). If you take the time to visit them in california they are the nicest family you could hope to meet. And they have cake 😃.  

Not everyone likes Alembic instruments - I do (after trying Wal, warwick tobias etc). 

Yes ok maybe one of the first then - however anyone using graphite could be called a pioneer imo. I suppose back then there was little information about who else was doing what so many manufacturers who have been around a long time probably pioneered the same sort of things in semi isolation. 

I would also put alembic uo there of course, having had one and admired many more. 

[naxos10]

I would say that having has a guitar voted the best 5 string bu the British bass press (BGM) and with the variety of builds he can offer ACG have to be up there.

Edited September 25, 2018 by naxos10

[4000]

42 minutes ago, jacko said:

HMMM.  Alembic developed the first graphite neck-thru instruments alongside Geoff Gould of Modulus five years before Vigier came into being. They also developed the first active electronics, built the first low 'B' five string (for Jimmy Johnson)  and pioneered the use of exotic hardwoods for aesthetic and functional purposes. 

They're a wonderful company to deal with, involving the customer in every aspect of design / choice of materials / electronics package and even shape (if you pay them enough). If you take the time to visit them in california they are the nicest family you could hope to meet. And they have cake 😃.  

Not everyone likes Alembic instruments - I do (after trying Wal, warwick tobias etc). 

I've never played a Ritter, but I've played (and in some cases owned) all the others mentioned initially and many, many more; Spector, F Bass, Sei, ACG, Everson, Ken Smith, Warwick, Jaydee, Modulus, top end Warwick, Sadowsky, Enfield, Elrick, Curbow, Vigier, Steinberger, GB, Pedulla, Overwater, Jerzy Drozd, Wood & Tronics etc etc; the end is listless. Never played a Stenback but as they're essentially a super-Jazz then it wouldn't be my bag anyway. Never played a GUS, although I think they're cool and I would like to. The best built out of everything I've played would have to be the top end Alembics. I'm not talking the '70s ones as they can be hit and miss; the more recent ones, relatively speaking. The woodworking and finishing on my custom Triple Omega was flawless and made my Wals look like I'd made them in woodwork class. That's not to say it was a better instrument though as that's totally subjective, that's just based on actual build quality.

  

Edited September 25, 2018 by 4000

[Raymondo]

I have never played any of the high end stuff, never felt the need to try.

I hate the look of the Foderas I have seen on here so my vote is based purely on looks ...

and it goes to    Zemaitis.  As modelled by  Pete Cruikshank on the Hogwash album...I just thought it looked cool!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=groundhogs,+hogwash,+tri+fold+cover&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcqOfoj9bdAhXIBcAKHXlCB14Q7Al6BAgGEA8&biw=1477&bih=718#imgrc=zHDTj6QWHVGnuM:

Bit of extra info... I was talking to Ken Pustelnik about Pete on Facebook the other day and a friend of Pete's said that Pete had given the Zemaitis bass to his son for doing well in his exams!

[LukeFRC]

The problem is not only is it subjective but it relies on context and trend. Broadly Talkbass taps into the positive US attitude and gets excited and supportive of their small scale builders - so a lot of the top boutique names come from the states. 

In the UK we don’t seem to really like our builders being successful so aren’t as positive and don’t big them up as much - (another comment on barefaced handles anyone?) so we tend more towards US producers... 

once you get to a certain point how good Something is becomes less objective and the brand and your perceptions of it start mattering. 

[BigRedX]

As a measure of just how subjective high end basses can be here is a little story:

When I first discovered Basschat's predecessor (Bassworld), Dood was in the middle of having his first custom Shuker built, and was documenting the process in a build thread. It all looked mighty impressive, and as I was at the time looking for someone to build me my perfect fretless bass, I went and checked out the Shuker web site. There were some great looking basses on there and as he was reasonably local I fired off an email enquiry. Pretty soon I was trading emails with Jon regarding my own custom build based on a couple of the basses on his site that I liked the look of. 

Then I went to the Manchester Bass day and actually got some hands-on time with a whole load of Shuker basses. Unfortunately the whole experience was just one big anti-climax. There was nothing in the feel of any of the Shuker basses, that I tried, that spoke to me at all. They all looked fantastic, but in my hands they might as well be averagely set-up Squiers. So I crossed Shuker off my list and went on looking.

Eventually I chose Martin Petersen of Sei Bass to build my fretless. When it was finished I travelled down to London to pick it up and while I was waiting for Martin to make some final set-up adjustments I got to try another Sei fretless that he had recently completed. Like my bass it was a beautiful looking instrument, but in my hands it simply didn't speak to me the way the bass built to my specifications did. Side by side they were two exceptional basses built to the highest standard by one of the best bass luthiers in the country. However to me one was the perfect fretless bass bass, the other just a very nice well made instrument.

You simply can't remove subjectivity from the equation.

[TrevorR]

1 hour ago, ped said:

As mentioned I really like bass builders who make more than just the ‘chassis’ and bolt bought in components to them (simplifying it slightly). For me the top makers are the ones who make bespoke pickups, hardware and circuits themselves, or at least work with companies who make them for the builder specifically.

I also value above a lot of other factors some innovation. So that rules out most people making jazz bass clones. I think a top maker has their own design language and has a no compromise approach, making something idiosyncratic that might not sell in high volume but is the result of a no compromise way of approaching the instrument. 

So I’m going to say the likes of Vigier (carbon pioneer, weird and proprietary electronics, individual shape) and Smith (own shape, pioneered the whole game, impeccable build and instantly recognisable sound) because that’s what I own and I’m biased. hehe

..cough cough... ...Wal... ...cough cough...

[TrevorR]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

As a measure of just how subjective high end basses can be here is a little story:

When I first discovered Basschat's predecessor (Bassworld), Dood was in the middle of having his first custom Shuker built, and was documenting the process in a build thread. It all looked mighty impressive, and as I was at the time looking for someone to build me my perfect fretless bass, I went and checked out the Shuker web site. There were some great looking basses on there and as he was reasonably local I fired off an email enquiry. Pretty soon I was trading emails with Jon regarding my own custom build based on a couple of the basses on his site that I liked the look of. 

Then I went to the Manchester Bass day and actually got some hands-on time with a whole load of Shuker basses. Unfortunately the whole experience was just one big anti-climax. There was nothing in the feel of any of the Shuker basses, that I tried, that spoke to me at all. They all looked fantastic, but in my hands they might as well be averagely set-up Squiers. So I crossed Shuker off my list and went on looking.

Eventually I chose Martin Petersen of Sei Bass to build my fretless. When it was finished I travelled down to London to pick it up and while I was waiting for Martin to make some final set-up adjustments I got to try another Sei fretless that he had recently completed. Like my bass it was a beautiful looking instrument, but in my hands it simply didn't speak to me the way the bass built to my specifications did. Side by side they were two exceptional basses built to the highest standard by one of the best bass luthiers in the country. However to me one was the perfect fretless bass bass, the other just a very nice well made instrument.

You simply can't remove subjectivity from the equation.

Great example and I absolutely agree that it's an immensely personal thing. Another way of looking at it for me is that as soon as you are talking about paying a grand or two for a bass then all the non-subjective aspects should be ticked at a basic level and taken as read. Any "non-subjective improvement" beyond then is a matter of degree and subject to the law of diminishing returns. But that is where the subjective elements really kicks in. The question them becomes not "Which bass/builder is best?" but "Which bass/builder is best for me?"