Pedalboard and signal loss: buffers & good patch cables recommendations?

[mcnach]

 

EDIT: It was a single patch cable, between the last overdrive and the wah... 

 

I'm not a heavy effects user, and I only really use a non-small pedalboard in one of the bands I play in. I say non-small rather than large because I've seen the size of some of the boards some of the guys here have... some have a measurable gravitational field 😛

I've been replacing, adding, changing things over the past few months, and I realised last week that I have a significant signal loss. The volume drop is noticeable and it feels a bit... muffled... just a bit, compared to plugging straight in, or through a single pedal (so that I still use the same long cables)

I use a 6m lead from bass to pedalboard, and another one from pedalboard to amp.

I checked and it turns out that every single one of the 9 pedals is true bypass, including the tuner at the start of the chain. Last/near last is an EBS Multicomp, true bypass but it's always on.

 

Chain:

Tuner (Tomsline TA-07)

Octave (MarkBass)

3x overdrives (Caline Orange Burst -> EBS Multidrive -> Joyo Ultimate Drive / EBS Metal Drive)

wah (G-Labs wowee wah)

Phaser (EHX Small stone) 

Compressor (EBS Multicomp - always on)

DI (DSM OmniCabSim DeLuxe - always on, but using the 'through' output to the amp, reserving the processed signal to send to FOH)

 

Q1: I generally use active basses, either a Stingray or a Schecter Model T (EMG)... which I thought would go some way to help matters, but perhaps I should consider putting a decent buffered bypass pedal first in the chain, especially as I sometimes use a passive Precision too. Probably a tuner would be the best idea although I like the one I'm using now (small but bright, good visibility in all conditions)... so maybe a dedicated buffer would be a good thing to use, such as the TC Electronic Bonafide (also small footprint). Any suggestions?

Q2: Cables. The patch cables I use have been accumulated over the years. All kinds and varying in length to fit. Whenever I identify a bad one, I throw it away... but that doesn't mean that they're all great... and perhaps the cumulative effect of all those cables, if a few of them are not great, can have a noticeable effect... so my question is... there are lots of patch cables advertised everywhere, some with pretty amazing claims (of course) so it's hard to decide which ones are really good and which ones are just exaggerating: which patch cables would people here recommend for a pedalboard the size of mine? Most can be pretty short but I need a couple of longer ones. Compact plugs are a bonus as they allow to organise the pedals better.

Q3: Any benefit in adding a buffer in the middle of the chain? Just considering adding a buffered overdrive as the last of the 3 overdrives I use.

 

I plan to test systematically the board removing one pedal at a time, to see if the effect is mostly due to a single pedal (as I found years ago with the CRy Baby wah I was using at the time), and see if any cables are obviously worse than the others... but until I an do that (not until next weekend, likely), I'd love to hear any suggestions/advice from people who know about these things and/or have experienced similar issues and how they dealt with them.

Edited October 4, 2018 by mcnach

[dannybuoy]

Best place for a buffer is first in line, unless you have any fuzzes that sound better connected directly to passive pickups. Once your signal has been through one, it is much less prone to signal degradation, meaning that your choice of cable after that point becomes less important.

However if you are getting significant signal loss with an active bass, your bass already has a buffer in it, and adding another one won't make much difference. Signal loss after a buffer stage often means you have a damaged patch cable somewhere!

I would go for one of the many solderless cabling kits, I've had noise issues with the flat cables due to them using unshielded plastic plugs.

Edited September 30, 2018 by dannybuoy

[mcnach]

22 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Best place for a buffer is first in line, unless you have any fuzzes that sound better connected directly to passive pickups. Once your signal has been through one, it is much less prone to signal degradation, meaning that your choice of cable after that point becomes less important.

However if you are getting significant signal loss with an active bass, your bass already has a buffer in it, and adding another one won't make much difference. Signal loss after a buffer stage often means you have a damaged patch cable somewhere!

I would go for one of the many solderless cabling kits, I've had noise issues with the flat cables due to them using unshielded plastic plugs.

 

That's my feeling too: that it's probably one (or more) or the patch cables, or a particularly bad pedal but I've tried them all in isolation at various points and none seemed bad. 

The thing that puts me off solderless kits is that I *feel* they're not very solid. Maybe it's just my feeling and they work beautifully, I don't know. I'm happy to solder anyway... but I prefer them already made (while I can solder well, I prefer to use my time doing other things, like reading BC 😛 )

IN your own personal experience, what works well?

[Johnny Wishbone]

I never trusted solderless until I tried the Evidence Audio ones. Very solid. Not cheap, but certainly comparable to George Ls etc.

[mcnach]

37 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

I’ve just been through some of what you describe. 

I had a slight loss of power combined with a mild fuzziness. Took me ages, but I systematically ripped the whole lot apart and found there was a dodgy Fender Custom Shop patch cable which when replaced, resolved the issue. I also had an issue with my extension lead, so it is worth checking literally everything associated with your rig.

Are you quite happy that the cumulative draw of all your pedals does not exceed the maximum allowed by your power supply?

 

Those symptoms seem to match mine indeed.

I'm using a Voodoo Labs Pedal Power 2 Plus, there's plenty left on tap as most of the pedals I'm using are very low current draw. It's a little overkill for my needs, but I bought it at a time when I was using a couple of hungry digital pedals plus the wireless system, and this coped with the lot very well, so I don't think power is the issue here.

I'm tempted to buy already one of those Evidence Audio kits and use it to troubleshoot the board (as well as tidying up a bit the layout), as it cannot hurt. 

[mcnach]

8 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Same power supply as mine then and no, that shouldn’t be an issue for the Voodoo Labs. How many pedals do you have and are you daisy chaining any of them for power?

 

9 relatively low draw pedals, only 3 daisy chained: two of the overdrives (I think they're less than 20mA each) and the tuner.

[mcnach]

17 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Also, I’m sure you may have considered this, but isn’t there a ceiling on maximum draw for each power output. Maybe it’s just those two particular overdrives that exceed it if you’ve had a swap around at any point?

 

No, I'm sure the power draw is not exceeded, I'm quite careful with that since years ago I had a hard time with gremlins in my board... and it turned out to be that my power supply was not powerful enough. Since then it's become a thing for me to check the specs of every pedal and the power supplies

The daisy chain, however, is worth looking into. It is not the sturdiest looking thing and I don't even remember where or when I got it  👍

[Japhet]

If you're still after a buffer, have a look at the Valeton FP 10. I've just picked one up off ebay for £22 and at home volumes it sounds lovely. No reason to think it won't be good at gig volumes either. Here's a YT link (only guitar) but you'll get an idea of how nice the tone is. Demo starts about 1.50 in.

 

[itu]

...a 6m lead from bass to pedalboard, and another one from pedalboard to amp.

These are pretty long but shouldn't be that bad - hopefully both are in good order. First check point.

 

Chain:

Tuner (Tomsline TA-07)

Octave (MarkBass)

3x overdrives (Caline Orange Burst -> EBS Multidrive -> Joyo Ultimate Drive / EBS Metal Drive)

wah (G-Labs wowee wah)

Phaser (EHX Small stone) 

Compressor (EBS Multicomp - always on)

DI (DSM OmniCabSim DeLuxe - always on, but using the 'through' output to the amp, reserving the processed signal to send to FOH)

 

The exact chain looks good. Now, there are a few units, there which means that it is reasonable to estimate the power consumption.

TA-07: 24 mA

Octave: this was hard, no results, but similar units consume 50 - 130 mA (*)

Burst: 30 mA

Multidrive: 30 mA

Ultimate Dr: 6 mA

Metal Dr: 25 mA

wowee: 30 mA

Small Stone: 100 mA (*)

Multicomp: 35 mA

DI: 40 / 100 mA (with headphones) (*)

In total we have something between 370 and 510 mA. Not a lot for the power block. But those marked with an asterisk (*) should be tested in the high power outputs, one at a time and then together.

http://www.voodoolab.com/pedalpower_2.htm

 

Q2: Cables. The patch cables I use have been accumulated over the years. ...there are lots of patch cables advertised everywhere, some with pretty amazing claims (of course) so it's hard to decide which ones are really good and which ones are just exaggerating: which patch cables would people here recommend for a pedalboard the size of mine?

Usually if the cables do not move a lot or get bent all the time, they should last for years. If there is any abuse, they should be inspected if something seems to change. These patch cables tend to be so short, their performance should be near excellent. My personal preference is to solder all cables from high quality silicone cables (Cordial, Gotham...) to reasonable lengths. Neutrik or thinner angled metal plugs.

 

I plan to test systematically the board removing one pedal at a time, to see if the effect is mostly due to a single pedal...

This excluding approach is a very good way. Remember to change the order of cables and pedals within your test. Because all pedals are active, I do not expect to hear losses on or off. Only if there is a defect or power loss, of course.

[paul_5]

George L cables are brilliant, I haven’t used anything else for years. 

[GisserD]

16 hours ago, Johnny Wishbone said:

I never trusted solderless until I tried the Evidence Audio ones. Very solid. Not cheap, but certainly comparable to George Ls etc.

+1 for evidence audio SIS

[mcnach]

Well... I didn't really have time to sit down to test everything... but earlier today I found myself in front of the pedalboard and I thought I'd start at least. I plugged in and... it sounded worst than last time I used it. Not just the volume issue and slightly degraded sound... there was a bit of a weird fuzzy noise that followed the envelope of each note I played.

I started wiggling patch cables... yes, very technical, I know...

And what do you know? One cable, between the last overdrive and the wah started making noise... and in one position made the bass sound perfectly clear... then move it a bit and the problems start. I think it all may be THAT single cable.

Since I'm at it, I'm going to revise the setup to make the cabling tidier but... replacing that cable seems to be doing the trick.

The simplest things...