NJW Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 [quote name='slaphappygarry' post='35637' date='Jul 22 2007, 06:08 PM']I disagree a good engineer with a bad desk/pa/band will sound good. A bad engineer with all the best gear and bands wont. Just my opinion. G[/quote] Sorry, was still a bit testy earlier from a gig last night. A band of 14/15 year olds playing 'twee indie pop' and mumbling into the mic at a level quieter than ordinary conversation. Daddy of the singer then went off on one at me because he couldnt hear the vocals over the drums. The drummer was wailing on the cymbals like they were the guy who didnt call his sister back after a date, and the guitarists kept turning their amps up and up. Argh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappygarry Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Fair enough man G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveDDF Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 [quote name='NJW' post='35713' date='Jul 22 2007, 09:25 PM']Sorry, was still a bit testy earlier from a gig last night. A band of 14/15 year olds playing 'twee indie pop' and mumbling into the mic at a level quieter than ordinary conversation. Daddy of the singer then went off on one at me because he couldnt hear the vocals over the drums. The drummer was wailing on the cymbals like they were the guy who didnt call his sister back after a date, and the guitarists kept turning their amps up and up. Argh.[/quote] I can completely relate to that, so don't worry My band gig a fair bit, and sound mixes vary 50/50 in quality for us really. The guys and gals in the welsh club in cardiff always do a sterling job though. I don't do sound that much these days, and when I fill in it's normally some metal/hardcore bands, but now and again I will get to do sound for a a gem of a band which makes it all worth while! I did sound for these guys a while back, and their input list was a nightmare for the place I was doing it but I enjoyed engineering them so much! [url="http://www.myspace.com/thelongwinters"]http://www.myspace.com/thelongwinters[/url] But yes - writing down the headline bands settings is vital and takes about a minute!! I have specific sheets for the desk I work with ready to go and add settings to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShergoldSnickers Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 When I was gigging, a long time a go now, I used to keep an extra long lead handy so I could stand out front in the sound check. What used to be slightly alarming though, was how the sound changed when you moved about, and when the bodies started filling the place. That's where an experienced sound engineer comes in. Once it was explained why things were done in a certain way it all made sense. Worth their weight in diamonds. It's about cooperation and diplomacy from both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 We gig without a FOH engineer, usually relying on a soundcheck and then someone out front who knows what we want to sound like to advise. Usually what will happen is that vocals will need a bit of a lift. Usually this is because - as I discover when I take my in-ears out - guitarist has cranked his volume about three bars in. I'm almost always grateful for feedback from someone out front on the sound quality. I only have an issue when playing a sizeable (but empty at soundcheck) venue and someone from the committee (who for all I know spent his entire working life in a mine next to the mother of all drills) starts giving advice about how such and such is too loud. We always turn down when asked once there are people in the house, but I find it galling when asked to do so despite there being a full dancefloor, loads of applause and it's because there is one old bag who has plonked herself inches from the PA stack complaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clauster Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 We've got a big guy who does our sound - his number one duty is to leap on stage and punch the guitarists if they look like they're about to reach for the volume knobs on their amps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGH Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Never rely on a guitarist or engineer whos base level of experience comes from the early to mid 70s. or a singer....re:singer that means EVER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 (edited) [quote name='ARGH' post='36062' date='Jul 23 2007, 07:05 PM']Never rely on a guitarist or engineer whos base level of experience comes from the early to mid 70s. or a singer....re:singer that means EVER![/quote] MB1. WHY? Seems The Who have managed nicely! Edited July 23, 2007 by MB1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShergoldSnickers Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 [quote name='clauster' post='35867' date='Jul 23 2007, 12:22 PM']We've got a big guy who does our sound - his number one duty is to leap on stage and punch the guitarists if they look like they're about to reach for the volume knobs on their amps [/quote] Must develop a guitar amp that throws a boxing glove containing an anvil at whoever tries to meddle with the gain. Just think of the market opportunities. Bassplayers, keyboard players, vocalists, drummers. They'd all want one to replace the kit the guitarist is currently using. The guitarist wouldn't notice. After a few times, the broken jaw would probably be associated with the action of playing with the volume control, so it might work. Oh, hang on - I bought a guitar recently, I'd forgotten about that... See? I'm already losing brain function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGH Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 [quote name='MB1' post='36071' date='Jul 23 2007, 07:23 PM']MB1. WHY? Seems The Who have managed nicely![/quote] The Who are a 2 piece showband that play Enormodomes,with a backing band of semi name musicians,with a massive pile of cash to get the best of the best. We are talking about the pub/club circuit,buy a wireless and you will find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 MB1. Alas, if you werent talking out of your arse i might be able to hear what your saying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay249 Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I agree with ARGH. apart from ''semi name musicians''... Palladino is a better name than mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barneythedog Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 +1 to the extra long lead. I always do our sound, from the end of the worlds loooooongest lead. I must get a wireless soon !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 [quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='35790' date='Jul 23 2007, 07:32 AM']When I was gigging, a long time a go now, I used to keep an extra long lead handy so I could stand out front in the sound check. What used to be slightly alarming though, was how the sound changed when you moved about, and when the bodies started filling the place. That's where an experienced sound engineer comes in. Once it was explained why things were done in a certain way it all made sense. Worth their weight in diamonds. It's about cooperation and diplomacy from both sides.[/quote] MB1. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 [quote name='barneythedog' post='36088' date='Jul 23 2007, 07:59 PM']+1 to the extra long lead. I always do our sound, from the end of the worlds loooooongest lead. I must get a wireless soon !! [/quote] MB1. ......OH! that sort of wireless!........ Spinal Tap the aircraft hanger gig?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freuds_Cat Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='NJW' post='35527' date='Jul 22 2007, 09:42 PM']Sound engineers cant polish a turd. Something many people forget.[/quote] Its interesting how this comment was taken by people. I must be more contrary than I thought. To me it meant that if a band already sounds like sh*t then there is no way your gonna make it sound polished just by mixing it through a desk. I dont necessarily disagree with this comment in that context. I mean if you have a band where the guit4rist thinks that 12 is normal vol setting with a drummer that plays like a dinner Jazz brushes player and a bass player that has a thin dry sound with bugger all bottoms. ( hope the band I'm talking about dont read this) and a singer that goes from mumbling drivel like a pissed Jim Morrison to belting it out like Plant (well not quite) and none of them have any idea what the other is doing in a dynamic sense then I'm sorry but even Steve Hoffman is gonna have trouble making it sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumbo Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I think half the problem with bad FOH sound is a lack of communication between the band and the engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='NJW' post='35527' date='Jul 22 2007, 12:12 PM']Sound engineers cant polish a turd. Something many people forget.[/quote] Wana bet? I wish i could show you some old mixes i worked on. You couldnt look at that turd without squinting Honestly though more often than not "polishing the turd" is exactly what sound engineers HAVE to do. This is usually why its OK sound and not great sound. However saying this i was talking to the sound engineer (being unhappy with the mix and asking him to turn up the lead guitar and down the rhythm n being the usual engineer/manager) and he told me to F off. He ended up with a whole nights worth of angry bands getting at him tho so we werent the only band to be unhappy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 In the studio, you can polish a turd, but, if a band has horrible guitar sounds, all you can do is try to EQ them a bit. Most PA systems won't have enough equipment/flexibility to polish a turd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_the_bass Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 i have cherry picked bits of this thread so sorry if I've repeated anything. I have never EVER heard our FOH sound, we have an engineer driving the desk wherever we go - be it the house system engineer or the person who owns the PA - sometimes we've been told that the sound was a bit ropey, but we've never been told it was bloody awful. I doubt I will ever hear our FOH sound and have no idea what it sounds like - which is, in a way, a bloody shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freuds_Cat Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 (edited) I have a great situation where I get a couple of my students to get up and do a song with my gear and I get to go for a walk. One in particular I've taught from quite young and his style is a bit similar to my own. This gives me a pretty good idea of what things sound like out front. Mind you the guys I play with have all been playing for donkeys and have a good understanding of how to get a good sound even without a desk. Lifes easy these days I guess. I can remember a few times in the 80's at big shows where you just knew that the FOH whas sh*te and there was just nothing you could do about it from the stage. Edited November 30, 2007 by Freuds_Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='The Funk' post='35673' date='Jul 22 2007, 06:58 PM']Yeah, I always hate being told but I'm always grateful because I want to know. It's amazing how none of the toilet circuit venues in London we've played have a decent engineer - or safe electrics.[/quote] Just to follow up. We played The Rock Garden (or Gardening Club as it's now known) not long after that post and the sound engineer was fantastic. He got a good sound and was a very helpful guy - even after I accidentally gave him a ^ shape EQ on my DI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99ster Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='NJW' post='35630' date='Jul 22 2007, 04:52 PM']The reason behind the statement is that the majority of the gig going public don't realise that a band with bad equipment may sound bad for that reason. A colleague of mine (who is a fantastic engineer) was actually assaulted by a punter who punched him on the nose, because the guitars weren't audible. Fact was that the guitarist was using a horrendous crate amp and kept turning the amp up and down mid song. [b]A good band, in contrast, is NOT hard for ANYONE to do sound for[/b].[/quote] [b]+1000[/b] Many 'musicians' don't even understand how to get a half decent sound out of their equipment - but work with good musicians & they always sound good WITHOUT a PA. And that's the key - it should sound great without a PA - you should only need a PA to lift the overall volume & let the singer be heard clearly. A PA engineer shouldn't have to fix the crap sound of the band & fight against the egos of 'musicians' who think they deserve to be louder than the rest of their band mates. Worst are certain 'tricks' that a lot of stupid so called 'musicians' use - a favourite of the talentless everywhere is turning down the volume on their bass or guitar in the sound check - so they've got that secret extra bit in reserve for the gig, just in case they start to worry that they're not being heard properly (i.e. loudest) by the audience. When I used to do FOH sound I once had to actually walk on stage & turn down a (I'm ashamed to say it) bass player's amp because he'd pulled that stunt. I had loads of people coming up to me & calling me a c**t because all they could hear was this idiot's crap bass playing - I had to show them the channel on the desk with his bass DI turned down to zero. But it was so bad (& with him grinning away because he thought he was so great now he'd turned himself up good & loud) that in the end I had to walk through the crowd get on stage & turn down his backline. And even famous musicians can ruin it for everyone.... I saw 'McAlmont & Butler' a few years ago in a small venue - great musicians, great gear, great singer - but 'super star' guitarist Bernard Butler had his guitar ridiculously super loud on stage (a classic symptom of GAK abuse not too mention over-inflated ego) so everyone was screwed: the rest of the band, the poor foldback engineer & the FOH engineer. He's infamous for doing it apparently - but no-one will tell him to turn down. Though I can see the funny side as well.... There's a great story about a huge Stones stadium gig when Keith Richards turned his amps up horrendously loud on stage - so the Jagger says 'Keith - what you doing? Your guitar's too loud!'. Keith's explanation? It turned out that Keith didn't actually appreciate that his FOH guitar sound was going through a 10 zillion watt PA system at gigs.... and when he saw the size of the crowd he thought he'd better turn up his backline to the max so the people at the back could hear what he was playing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='99ster' post='96772' date='Nov 30 2007, 04:09 PM'][b]+1000[/b] And that's the key - it should sound great without a PA - you should only need a PA to lift the overall volume & let the singer be heard clearly. A PA engineer shouldn't have to fix the crap sound of the band & fight against the egos of 'musicians' who think they deserve to be louder than the rest of their band mates.[/quote] Well said. On that note, do you think it would be wise for some bands in some smaller venues to take the drums, bass, guitar and keys out of the PA, go through their amps and leave the PA just for vocals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebasshead Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I often wonder what state FoH engineers ears are in - surely anyone who regularly does the sound for bands is exposed to loud music on such a regular basis that their hearing would be less than perfect to start with. I've never really noticed any of them using ear protection - has anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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