Mini Helix - HX Stomp...

[Sibob]

5 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Saw this the other day and earmarked it as a future purchase, however it doesn't have an XLR DI out. Why? Seems like such a silly omission for what looks like a teriffic product, hopefully they do a MkII and rectify this.

This is covered extensively in the rest of the thread if you want to give it a read.

TL;DR The outputs of the stomp can be switched to line-level (as opposed to instrument level), and are balanced. ie you can easily run line-level to an appropriate line-level input over long distances, or instrument level to an appropriate input. Doesn't help if you want a DI out whilst also running to an amp however, unless you run a dual mono output with one side going to your amp and one side going to a mic (XLR) input of a desk via a 1/4" to XLR cable. Convoluted but doable it seems.

Personally I wouldn't bother and just run mono out of the pedal into a DI box, with a thru from that to my amp.

Si

[CameronJ]

6 minutes ago, Sibob said:

The outputs of the stomp can be switched to line-level (as opposed to instrument level), and are balanced. ie you can easily run line-level to an appropriate line-level input over long distances, or instrument level to an appropriate input. Doesn't help if you want a DI out whilst also running to an amp however, unless you run a dual mono output with one side going to your amp and one side going to a mic (XLR) input of a desk via a 1/4" to XLR cable. Convoluted but doable it seems.

To add some more info to the above, the level of the main outs and the FX loops are switchable but the main outs are tied as a pair and therefore you can’t, for example, have the left side of the mains at line level while the right side puts out instrument level. It’s either Line or instrument for both L & R sides of the main outputs.

The solution is to run one side of the main outs to PA at line level and one of the FX sends set at instrument level for the onstage amp.

[lemmywinks]

I've skimmed through the thread and am aware of how the 1/4" jacks are configured, it just seems a bit silly to omit the exact type of DI connection that everybody uses meaning you have to use a different cable, carry an adapter with you or use an external box, all of which aren't something I want to have to do after spending a decent wedge. I bet at least one of those could have been an XLR/1/4" combi jack without increasing the overall size, as we'll probably find out when they do a revision.

[CameronJ]

1 minute ago, lemmywinks said:

I've skimmed through the thread and am aware of how the 1/4" jacks are configured, it just seems a bit silly to omit the exact type of DI connection that everybody uses meaning you have to use a different cable, carry an adapter with you or use an external box, all of which aren't something I want to have to do after spending a decent wedge. I bet at least one of those could have been an XLR/1/4" combi jack without increasing the overall size, as we'll probably find out when they do a revision.

I do agree, or at least I did before I started fully geeking out on the details of this thing and realised there is almost zero unused internal space inside this thing. To add an XLR would have meant removing something else. And then of course people would be moaning at only having a single XLR making their stereo patches useless. Then to add a second XLR would have meant cutting something else again.

Given the footprint the design team were aiming for it was simply impossible to do whilst retaining the featureset. 1/4” TRS jacks were by their own admission a slight compromise but I’d rather deal with that slight compromise whilst still having MIDI or FX loops for example.

[lemmywinks]

Surely a few mm extra wouldn't have killed them though? To me that's missing a key bit of functionality (something that a unit with this purpose should 100% have) to keep the size down by a tiny amount, just seems like a thoughtless trade-off to me. Form over function.

[Al Krow]

I can see that it would be more convenient if you're planning on using as a stand alone in the way you might some of the larger Helix.

Interestingly the Helix HX which takes up double the floor area of the Stomp also does not have an XLR out.

If, like me, this is going on your board with other pedals, because unlike the full fat versions, that is actually now an option! (e.g. filter and synth pedals which the Helix is not yet on a par with) and it's not going to be at the very end of your chain, the lack of an xlr out is neither here nor there for me: I'll have one tucked under my board should it ever be needed.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Al Krow

[Sibob]

1 hour ago, lemmywinks said:

I've skimmed through the thread and am aware of how the 1/4" jacks are configured, it just seems a bit silly to omit the exact type of DI connection that everybody uses meaning you have to use a different cable, carry an adapter with you or use an external box, all of which aren't something I want to have to do after spending a decent wedge. I bet at least one of those could have been an XLR/1/4" combi jack without increasing the overall size, as we'll probably find out when they do a revision.

Maybe, but remember that we're looking at this through the eyes of bassists, our live (and often studio) world is all about 'DI'. All of Line6 stuff is squarely aimed at guitarists, we're an afterthought. As such, guitarists are simply interested in Send/Returns and instrument outs, simple because in a live environment their cab is usually mic'd. Yes there are other use cases, some guitarists like to DI with in-ears etc etc, but they really are fringe use cases. So from a guitarist point of view, XLR is wasted real-estate and eating a few pence per unit into their revenue.

Si

[GisserD]

^^^ this

 

 

[lemmywinks]

Plenty of bass players all over the world are using them though. There's a ton of guitarists who run a Helix on it's own with in ears or a powered cab, our main dep being one of them and he uses the XLR out (he has the floor unit with the expression pedal) so it's not something just for us.

[CameronJ]

1 hour ago, lemmywinks said:

Surely a few mm extra wouldn't have killed them though? To me that's missing a key bit of functionality (something that a unit with this purpose should 100% have) to keep the size down by a tiny amount, just seems like a thoughtless trade-off to me. Form over function.

A single XLR socket takes up significantly more space than a single 1/4” socket, in both width and height. It’s like comparing an 8” speaker to a 15”. That kind of size difference affects the way PCBs have to be oriented and we go back to the point I made above re: cutting features.

On the other hand, your comment about the Stomp being a case of form over function isn’t entirely inaccurate - the design decided the Stomp had to fit into the small upper pocket of the Helix backpack, which feels like a bit of an arbitrary design goal especially when you consider that it pretty much depends upon Stomp buyers being existing Helix (and therefore Helix backpack) users. I’d say that the vast majority of Stomp sales will be to people who don’t already own a full sized Helix, and of those who do, many of them won’t have a Helix backpack. So yes, in a roundabout way I do agree with you!

[lemmywinks]

A 1/4" jack (surface mount or otherwise) takes up a surprising amount of space, not looked at any diagrams but although it is slimmer than an XLR it would go deeper into the case. I stand by my original thought that the difference in diameter would be several mm rather than several cm and that's probably a design compromise they could/should have made. 

I see this as an entry point into Helix use for working/gigging musicians so in that regard I think it would be worth viewing it as a standalone unit with all the features it should have, I still think it should have an XLR DI - despite being told multiple times otherwise! I always find it frustrating when you see a piece of equipment which is almost perfect, it has everything you want but missing a small key feature and (for me at least) this is one of those things which is a shame because I want one.

[dannybuoy]

XLR would be nice but it's not a deal breaker. Buy an adapter for a fiver, chuck it in your gig bag, done.

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

A 1/4" jack (surface mount or otherwise) takes up a surprising amount of space, not looked at any diagrams but although it is slimmer than an XLR it would go deeper into the case. I stand by my original thought that the difference in diameter would be several mm rather than several cm and that's probably a design compromise they could/should have made. 

I see this as an entry point into Helix use for working/gigging musicians so in that regard I think it would be worth viewing it as a standalone unit with all the features it should have, I still think it should have an XLR DI - despite being told multiple times otherwise! I always find it frustrating when you see a piece of equipment which is almost perfect, it has everything you want but missing a small key feature and (for me at least) this is one of those things which is a shame because I want one.

It does seem to be a trend with multi-fx, even stuff that is bass focussed.

So the older Zoom B3 had an xlr out; the newer and generally better B3n doesn't.

Neither of the two smaller new model Helix (HX and Stomp) have an xlr out

The Boss GT-1B doesn't have an xlr out.

In fact which of the smaller most recent models of bass multi-fx do have an xlr out?

Zoom, Boss, and Line 6 are market leaders in affordable bass multi-fx so I kinda feel, if anything, the tide is moving in the opposite direction away from xlr out.

And, frankly any time I've been required to use a DI, the sound engineer has had his own DI box to connect my normal 1/4" guitar cable to. For that one time they don't have one, I've got a £14 Behringer xlr under my board.

[Al Krow]

Actually I'm kinda glad the Stomp is not coming out for a couple of months!!

Just laid my pedals on my board ready to wire up. Hmmm...

...be very grateful for suggestions as to exactly where this HX Stomp is going to fit? 😂

 

[Bridgehouse]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Actually I'm kinda glad the Stomp is not coming out for a couple of months!!

Just laid my pedals on my board ready to wire up. Hmmm...

...be very grateful for suggestions as to exactly where this HX Stomp is going to fit? 😂

 

On it’s own - why do you need all that other stuff?! Or are you secretly a guitarist?

 

 

 

 

 

😂

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

On it’s own - why do you need all that other stuff?! Or are you secretly a guitarist?

😂

What are you talking about? ^^ This is a pedal board 😂

[CameronJ]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Actually I'm kinda glad the Stomp is not coming out for a couple of months!!

Just laid my pedals on my board ready to wire up. Hmmm...

...be very grateful for suggestions as to exactly where this HX Stomp is going to fit? 😂

 

Once the Stomp arrives, you’ll be able to get rid of the ms60b, potentially the Aftershock and maybe even the LS2

[Bridgehouse]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

What are you talking about? ^^ This is a pedal board 😂

No comment...

[Al Krow]

Just now, CameronJ said:

Once the Stomp arrives, you’ll be able to get rid of the ms60b, potentially the Aftershock and maybe even the LS2

Agreed! (Although the LS2 is to be able to feed a Y cable from the Meatbox).

The point is (and I agree) the Stomp is unlikely to be making any of the rest of the cabal redundant.

Multi-fx vs dedicated pedals.

[CameronJ]

Actually, upon closer inspection, I reckon the Stomp may also relegate the Keeley limiter as well as the MXR BEF.

Edit: depending on where it sits in your chain of course...

Edited October 19, 2018 by CameronJ

[dannybuoy]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Agreed! (Although the LS2 is to be able to feed a Y cable from the Meatbox).

How is that LS-2 being used with the Meatbox exactly? You might be able to do away with that too!

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, CameronJ said:

Once the Stomp arrives, you’ll be able to get rid of the ms60b, potentially the Aftershock and maybe even the LS2

 

2 hours ago, CameronJ said:

Actually, upon closer inspection, I reckon the Stomp may also relegate the Keeley limiter as well as the MXR BEF.

Edit: depending on where it sits in your chain of course...

Actually Cam it's been a kinda interesting "mental" exercise for me this evening, thinking through what is the Stomp going to replace on my board.

Clearly  NO question the Stomp is going to be better than the MS-60B (I'd really hope so for the extra £400!!)

It should potentially eliminate the need for the Aftershock assuming it has some very good drive sims. 

Still a questionmark as to how good the envelope filter is on the Helix => query whether it will make the MXR BEF redundant (and that is certainly not GisserD's current view of how capable the Helix is as a filter machine i.e. his BEF and Manta filters are not going anywhere).

I'd be really surprised if it came close to being as effective a Limiter as the Keeley. If I was to rank my experience of how effective limiters are, the Zoom limiter sims (on the MS-60B and B3n) would be 3/10 and Boss LMB3 6/10 on a scale where the Keeley gets a 10. That's how good I the Keeley is.

It won't have a synth engine to come close to the Panda FI or a gated fuzz to match the Mastotron. And according to db its polyphonic detuned octave isn't going to match the Mosaic.

 

2 hours ago, Bridgehouse said:

On it’s own - why do you need all that other stuff?!

Having got my signal chain order refined a bit further tonight and kinda feeling - yup I really like this little board, I'm actually asking myself a different question to the one that Bridgehouse posed. It's "not do I need all my other pedals?" Well actually tbf no one needs ANY pedals - I've spent four years gigging just bass --> amp and it's been just fine; pedals are a nice to have and creative FUN and that's good enough reason for me. But rather if the Helix Stomp is going to just replacing the MS-60B (which gets used as tuner, delay, flange) and my Aftershock, but nothing else, is there actually any point in getting a Helix?!

Well that was quite a turnaround in thinking for the evening  

[Al Krow]

9 hours ago, dannybuoy said:

How is that LS-2 being used with the Meatbox exactly? You might be able to do away with that too!

Tidied up signal chain as follows:

In --> Meatbox sub synth effect (via Y cable "tip") --> LS2 --> HPF (Thumpinator - underneath board)--> Limiter (Keeley) --> Out

              |-->  clean  (via Y cable "ring") -->  Compression (Spectracomp) --> Octave (Valeton OC10 - OC2 style octave) --> Synth (Panda FI) --> dirt (Aftershock / Mastotron) --> filters (Manta / BEF) --> Moduation (Mosaic / MS-60B) --> LS2 --> rejoin HPF / Limiter / Out

Edited October 20, 2018 by Al Krow

[lemmywinks]

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

It does seem to be a trend with multi-fx, even stuff that is bass focussed.

So the older Zoom B3 had an xlr out; the newer and generally better B3n doesn't.

Neither of the two smaller new model Helix (HX and Stomp) have an xlr out

The Boss GT-1B doesn't have an xlr out.

In fact which of the smaller most recent models of bass multi-fx do have an xlr out?

Zoom, Boss, and Line 6 are market leaders in affordable bass multi-fx so I kinda feel, if anything, the tide is moving in the opposite direction away from xlr out.

And, frankly any time I've been required to use a DI, the sound engineer has had his own DI box to connect my normal 1/4" guitar cable to. For that one time they don't have one, I've got a £14 Behringer xlr under my board.

I find it a bit weird that comprehensive bass players' tools like the Boss and Zoom units don't have what I would consider an essential part of a live bass player's arsenal and it definitely puts me off them, they're "do everything" boxes that should do everything. Maybe it's just me? Our cables are exclusively XLR and I don't always use the same one (different stage sizes = different cables) so I just think that for the working musician an XLR DI is essential. Every time I've been presented with an engineers DI box I've offered the use of my Fishman unit instead which engineers usually prefer as it's a great sounding DI and better than the one the have, I have a generic DI box I can use but the one built into my preamp unit is much better and this level of usability is something I would expect when upgrading to a Helix. Maybe I'm being old fashioned here? Tbh I don't think so and I don't think XLR cables are going anywhere. I'm not particularly keen on manufacturers cutting usability for no good reason.

 

Having to carry around a different cable or dongle isn't something I want to be doing in all honesty, horses for courses and all that.

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

I find it a bit weird that comprehensive bass players' tools like the Boss and Zoom units don't have what I would consider an essential part of a live bass player's arsenal and it definitely puts me off them, they're "do everything" boxes that should do everything. Maybe it's just me? Our cables are exclusively XLR and I don't always use the same one (different stage sizes = different cables) so I just think that for the working musician an XLR DI is essential. Every time I've been presented with an engineers DI box I've offered the use of my Fishman unit instead which engineers usually prefer as it's a great sounding DI and better than the one the have, I have a generic DI box I can use but the one built into my preamp unit is much better and this level of usability is something I would expect when upgrading to a Helix. Maybe I'm being old fashioned here? Tbh I don't think so and I don't think XLR cables are going anywhere. I'm not particularly keen on manufacturers cutting usability for no good reason.

Having to carry around a different cable or dongle isn't something I want to be doing in all honesty, horses for courses and all that.

How much is your Fishman DI box?

There is NO WAY any manufacturer is going to include something of that quality in their pedals. 

Doesn't it make more sense for you to take your Fishman with you to all gigs? You're not, it seems (and fair enough), anyway going to be happy with a cheap alternative costing a few ££ built into a pedal  which isn't focusing on being an excellent DI? 

I take PA, mixer, monitor, lighting, bass, bass amp & cab to gigs plus leads and cables for the above.  (OK - I've just worked out why my bands haven't sacked me yet  😄)

A small DI pedal on top, in one of the bags, is a Stomp in a tea cup for me.