Mini Helix - HX Stomp...

[CameronJ]

1 hour ago, Ghost_Bass said:

Yeah, you're right, but that really defeats the purpose of "making it small" doesn't it? I think i'm not made for multi-fx as i don't want to change patches to change sounds especially mid song, i would like for a multi-fx to work as if it was a series of single, good quality, pedals. The B3 was excelent in its design but the sounds just don't cut it enought to replace my pedals, it also isn't very transparent sounding, it really changes the tone of the bass even with everythingin bypass mode and all global settings flattened. Maybe forgetting about the amp/cab sims and going for the HX effects that will start to pop up in the FS secction is the way to go for me. Not as small as i would like it but still smaller than my current pedaltrain-nano harley benton clone.

Fair points there. If you don’t have a pressing need for amp sims/headphone amp/USB interface then you’re almost definitely better off with HX Effects. Having 8 footswitches and more screen realestate spread across the 8 scribble strips is gonna make the Effects somewhat more user-friendly than Stomp, especially if you’re likely to be using complex signal chains in a live context. HX Effects is a much more capable MIDI controller too since it’s capable of sending CCs (which Stomp can’t do at present).

I’m totally with you re: not being made for multi FX. I used to own both a Line 6 M5 and Zoom B3 with little love for either due to the very reasons you’ve stated above. A year ago I’d have leaned towards HX Effects for its size and number of switches but my pedalboard and workflow are much simpler these days so there’s just no contest - Stomp will be ideal for me. I can actually see myself running one fully loaded preset 90% of the time and just using snapshots for variety within the patch.

[Jack]

I'm not in any danger of selling my Helix Rack for this, but I have to admit that if this came out before I had bought any Helix, the Stomp would probably be the one I ended up with. 6 blocks and 3 switches is perfect, you're unlikely to need to turn some blocks off (amp models and compressors, for a start) and when you run out of blocks you just create a new patch. I think the only slight caveat to the stomp is that to be a proper gigging rig I'd have it (YMMV) on a board with a wireless, a proper DI for the PA and a mic pre for my FRFR, and at that point of size and cost you might as well have the LT. 

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, Jack said:

I'm not in any danger of selling my Helix Rack for this, but I have to admit that if this came out before I had bought any Helix, the Stomp would probably be the one I ended up with. 6 blocks and 3 switches is perfect, you're unlikely to need to turn some blocks off (amp models and compressors, for a start) and when you run out of blocks you just create a new patch. 

That's very positive  

3 hours ago, Jack said:

...to be a proper gigging rig I'd have it (YMMV) on a board with a wireless, a proper DI for the PA and a mic pre for my FRFR, and at that point of size and cost you might as well have the LT. 

Appreciate that the LT has an xlr DI, which the Stomp lacks - but that's very easily sorted with one of these which fits snugly under a pedal board and costs all of £14

 

But does the LT have a wireless and a mic pre built in or are you going to be needing to add these anyway?

Edited October 11, 2018 by Al Krow

[Jack]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

But does the LT have a wireless and a mic pre built in or are you going to be needing to add these anyway?

Wireless no, but my argument for the LT was that it does have proper, balanced, line level outputs for driving a power amp or powered speaker. However, I've just RTFM and it appears that the Stomp has balanced outputs too. Slightly annoying tbh!

[CameronJ]

The main outs on the Stomp are balanced - there is zero need for a separate DI box. The signal is exactly the same as if it were an XLR, the only difference is the size of the socket itself. The design team deliberately went the balanced 1/4” route as XLRs would have blown the footprint up.

The sound man may give you a weird look when you hand him a TRS 1/4” cable rather than the expected XLR but just tell him to deal with it. His mixer will see no difference.

 

Edit: @Jack you beat me to it!

Edited October 11, 2018 by CameronJ

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, CameronJ said:

The main outs on the Stomp are balanced - there is zero need for a separate DI box. The signal is exactly the same as if it were an XLR, the only difference is the size of the socket itself. The design team deliberately went the balanced 1/4” route as XLRs would have blown the footprint up.

The sound man may give you a weird look when you hand him a TRS 1/4” cable rather than the expected XLR but just tell him to deal with it. His mixer will see no difference.

 

Edit: @Jack you beat me to it!

Haha excellent! Best keep a copy of TFM on you, though, otherwise the sound guy ain't gonna believe you!

May still be worth be getting an xlr DI out if you're not planning on having the Stomp at the end of your signal chain. But that's only an issue cos the Stomp can be part of a pedal board rather than being the pedal board! 😎 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Al Krow

[CameronJ]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

May still be worth be getting an xlr DI out if you're not planning on having the Stomp at the end of your signal chain. 

Very true. My personal favourite is the Radial Stagebug SB-2. Flexible, passive, reliable and tiny!

[Ghost_Bass]

Just make (or have made) a 1/4" TRS to XLR cable adapter and stick it in together with the rest of the cables in the case. Done!

[Jack]

28 minutes ago, Ghost_Bass said:

Just make (or have made) a 1/4" TRS to XLR cable adapter and stick it in together with the rest of the cables in the case. Done!

Designacable to 50cm ones for £5 on Amazon. I got one for my GK Plex and one for our 'other' mixer's aux output and they're perfectly fine.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, CameronJ said:

Very true. My personal favourite is the Radial Stagebug SB-2. Flexible, passive, reliable and tiny!

I'm not sure it's much smaller than the Behringer and approx FIVE times the price! 😎 

[MarshallBTB]

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/micro.htm

The absolute winner in small DI boxes imo. 

[Jack]

20 minutes ago, MarshallBTB said:

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/micro.htm

The absolute winner in small DI boxes imo. 

Hmmm, but it needs phantom power and that can sometimes be a problem. I sold my Triton and don't really use my Countryman because of phantom power issues. FWIW there's a Radial SB2 wired into my Helix.

[Al Krow]

Mine's snugly under my board...or should I more correctly say smugly under now that it's discovered it costs a fraction of the Radial SB2 and does exactly the same thing! Came recommended to me by @jrixn1 and, believe me, if it's good enough for John it's more than good enough for me!

[CameronJ]

@Al Krow that Behringer looks to be a pretty spot-on clone of the Radial. Fair play, good savings there!

[Jack]

3-hour gig last night with my full-fat rack Helix. I used 2 footswitches, 3 if you include the tuner.

[Sibob]

On 11/10/2018 at 15:02, Jack said:

Wireless no, but my argument for the LT was that it does have proper, balanced, line level outputs for driving a power amp or powered speaker. However, I've just RTFM and it appears that the Stomp has balanced outputs too. Slightly annoying tbh!

 

There is a big difference between balanced outputs and line-level outputs. The main outputs on the Line 6 pedals will be instrument-level, as that is what any guitar/bass amp is expecting, doesn't make sense for them to be line-level, it would necessitate a fairly hefty pad on every amp input it's connected to. Whether the larger Helix' have separate line-level outs is another question, but certainly the Stomp won't.

As such, a DI box will be wanted, sure you can plug an instrument-level out directly into a line-level in on your desk, but you'll have to crank your gain on the desk to get a decent level, increasing your noise-floor. You might be lucky and have an Instrument-level in on your desk!?

On 11/10/2018 at 16:13, Ghost_Bass said:

Just make (or have made) a 1/4" TRS to XLR cable adapter and stick it in together with the rest of the cables in the case. Done!

 Use a DI box and not only are you optimising impedance for longer cable runs, but also running into Mic-level, which the desk is expecting from it's XLR input.

Decent article here: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-why-do-i-need-use-di-box

For what it's worth, for a cheap, hand-built, compact DI solution, I'd always go Orchid. Wouldn't touch Behringer with a barge-pole, for a number of reasons.

The Helix stomp looks very cool, could very well be a replacement to my Line6 M5, although doubt it will be out before my self-imposed gear ban in 2019, perhaps a NAMM announcement. That said, probably means it will be really cheap come 2020 when I'm buying again haha.

Cheers
Si

Edited October 15, 2018 by Sibob

[dannybuoy]

Most DI boxes just output the same volume level that goes in. Never had an issue sending an instrument level signal via a standard passive or active DI to the board, it's more commonly expected than a hot line level signal.

[Al Krow]

10 hours ago, Sibob said:

For what it's worth, for a cheap, hand-built, compact DI solution, I'd always go Orchid. Wouldn't touch Behringer with a barge-pole, for a number of reasons.

Why would you seek to avoid mangling a £14 Behringer passive DI box with a barge-pole? Can't see that there is much that can go wrong with one? 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Al Krow

[Ghost_Bass]

37 minutes ago, Sibob said:

 

There is a big difference between balanced outputs and line-level outputs. The main outputs on the Line 6 pedals will be instrument-level, as that is what any guitar/bass amp is expecting, doesn't make sense for them to be line-level, it would necessitate a fairly hefty pad on every amp input it's connected to. Whether the larger Helix' have separate line-level outs is another question, but certainly the Stomp won't.

As such, a DI box will be wanted, sure you can plug an instrument-level out directly into a line-level in on your desk, but you'll have to crank your gain on the desk to get a decent level, increasing your noise-floor. You might be lucky and have an Instrument-level in on your desk!?

 Use a DI box and not only are you optimising impedance for longer cable runs, but also running into Mic-level, which the desk is expecting from it's XLR input.

Decent article here: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-why-do-i-need-use-di-box

For what it's worth, for a cheap, hand-built, compact DI solution, I'd always go Orchid. Wouldn't touch Behringer with a barge-pole, for a number of reasons.

The Helix stomp looks very cool, could very well be a replacement to my Line6 M5, although doubt it will be out before my self-imposed gear ban in 2019, perhaps a NAMM announcement. That said, probably means it will be really cheap come 2020 when I'm buying again haha.

Cheers
Si

I can't find where (i think it was on that interview of the developer) but the Stomp had two "Send" outputs that you can choose inside the pedal software if you want it Line or Instrument Level, the outputs are XLR 1/4" TRS jacks, in Line output the signal sent is balanced so you can simply use it as a DI out for the mixer without having to add too much gain. Having tha Stomp exit setup for DI purposes makes it handy to have a balanced 1/4" TRS to XLR adaptor at hand since pretty much every sound guy will come to you with a XLR cable in his hand to hook you up to the PA. 

[Sibob]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Why would you seek to avoid mangling a £14 Behringer passive DI box with a barge-pole?

Because it would involve spending my time on something Behringer, which I'm not willing to do 😉

1 hour ago, Ghost_Bass said:

I can't find where (i think it was on that interview of the developer) but the Stomp had two "Send" outputs that you can choose inside the pedal software if you want it Line or Instrument Level, the outputs are XLR 1/4" TRS jacks, in Line output the signal sent is balanced so you can simply use it as a DI out for the mixer without having to add too much gain. Having tha Stomp exit setup for DI purposes makes it handy to have a balanced 1/4" TRS to XLR adaptor at hand since pretty much every sound guy will come to you with a XLR cable in his hand to hook you up to the PA. 

If something within the Stomp 'Sends' is switchable (I doubt the main outs are), then fine, however still doesn't get you out of using a DI box really. If it's instrument-level out, you'll want a DI for impedance purposes, if it's line-level out, the sound person will not thank-you for sending a level that hot to their mic preamps via a 1/4" to XLR cable.
Again, "Balanced" has nothing to do with it, it's all about the level of the output. Balanced outputs simply means, if using balanced cables also, they will prevent any extraneous noise in your signal created from anything else around you.  You can have unbalanced line-level (all RCA/Phono outputs are unbalanced), or balanced Mic Level (all XLR (unless they're AES) are likely to be balanced). Use unbalanced cables with balanced outputs, they may as well be unbalanced outputs, same goes vice versa. You do see a small drop in output when using unbalanced cables from balanced outputs, but nothing like the difference between line-level and instrument-level signals.

Also not sure what you mean with "XLR 1/4" TRS jacks"? They're either XLR or 1/4" (TRS refers to a jack cable being balanced (also stereo)).

Si

Edited October 15, 2018 by Sibob

[Ghost_Bass]

Oh, yeah , its a mistake, didn't delete the full sentence before writting the new one.the "XLR" should have been deleted too.

Regarding the "Line" issue, my GB Shuttle has the option in it's DI Out to choose between Mic or Line level. Everytime i'm working with a hired sound company i make sure to point this to the techs and ask them what option they prefer. The majority of them ask for line level and say they are happy with the signal strenght during soundcheck. I also use it in Line with my band and my mixer, gain is set pretty low at the mixer and there's no noise in my channel.

[CameronJ]

The ins and outs are switchable from the global settings menu to be running at instrument or line level, depending on usage context.

[Al Krow]

23 minutes ago, Sibob said:

Because it would involve spending my time on something Behringer, which I'm not willing to do 😉

OK. 

For the sake of balance (as we're discussing DI!) and a lack of anything concrete from you so far other than "I generally hate Behringer" with regard to this little box, I should add that the recommendation for this bit of kit came from a fellow BCer who regularly plays functions, so he's unlikely to want to risk a £1,000 gig with dodgy gear

Edited October 15, 2018 by Al Krow

[Sibob]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

OK. 

For the sake of balance (as we're discussing DI!) and a lack of anything concrete from you so far other than "I generally hate Behringer" with regard to this little box, I should add that the recommendation for this bit of kit came from a fellow BCer who regularly plays functions, so he's unlikely to want to risk a £1,000 gig with dodgy gear

My comments and feelings are are not about this DI box specifically, they're personal views on Behringer and their business practises, it's an idealogical protest, it pains me enough to put money in their pockets via TC Electronics. I would never suggest someone do what I do over what they want to do, I'm simply saying that I think Orchid is the best choice for me in these situations. Other opinions are available.

Back to the Helix

Si

Edited October 15, 2018 by Sibob

[Sibob]

17 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

The ins and outs are switchable from the global settings menu to be running at instrument or line level, depending on usage context.

Oh that's quite cool, but my points above still stand. The switching feature relies on you sending the signal to a line-in on a desk.....don't send it to an XLR mic-in via a 1/4" to XLR cable haha. If you want to send to an XLR (Mic) input, you'll want (need) a DI box.

Si